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Marik C.S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Feb 2010

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Stiletto-esque Dagger         Reply with quote

Greetings you fine people,
can anyone tell me whether there are daggers (historical ones or replicas) which are similar to blades such as these two: FDKM Bellum Daga & Extrema Ratio Surpressor?
I quite like the very narrow, slender, stiletto-like design and these are about the closest to what I had in mind. Well, apart from the fact that these are modern daggers.
"Real" stiletto daggers are nice enough, but somehow I'm no fan of the square cross-section.
Let me put it like this, if I carry a dagger I'd like to be able to cut if need arises. Hypothetically speaking.

The A811 Dagger from the Wallace Collection has a flattened diamond cross-section but is not as pronounced as in similar daggers I have seen (Which is one of the reasons I'm currently waiting for a replica of said object) and the Lutel Stiletto seems to have a completely flat blade (I don't own it, but it is on my "If-I-ever-rob-a-bank-I'll-buy-this"-List. Wink or the next time a birthday roles around, whichever comes first.) so there are some daggers going in that direction though these examples are considerably longer then the two modern ones above. But first let's find some more of these daggers before we start splitting hairs.

My guess as to why there are so few daggers with a less pronounced cross-section is, that a resilient point on a blade that shape can only achieved due to very tough modern steel so a historic dagger of that shape would not have lasted?
Or did I just miss them?

Thanks for your time and your answers.
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Tod Glenn




Location: Helena MT
Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 6:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Given the price of the Extrema knives, you could easily go with a custom maker in the same cost range and get exactly what you want.

http://www.deutsche-messermacher-gilde.de/index.php/en/
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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Posts: 683

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Stiletto-esque Dagger         Reply with quote

Marik C.S. wrote:
"Real" stiletto daggers are nice enough, but somehow I'm no fan of the square cross-section.
Let me put it like this, if I carry a dagger I'd like to be able to cut if need arises. Hypothetically speaking.


I don't know about you, but I cut things with a knife daily. Unless you eat only pudding. Wink

Anyway, one of the main things that determines a knife's cutting ability is the angle of the cutting edge.

That means that, given a blade that is 2cm wide and 5mm thick, a double edged knife has an angle that double that of a single edged knife of the same dimensions. This means that the single edged knife will cut much better. If you want a double edged knife that cuts as well as the single edged knife described before, you need a blade that is 4cm wide.

So without ever having seen one, I think I can predict that the Extrema Ratio Suppressor is not a great cutting knife. But it is undoubtedly good at stabbing. Like the renaissance stiletto. But I guess the cutlers of the renaissance thought that cutting ability is not important anyway, so better to forget about that.
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Marik C.S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Feb 2010

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You wouldn't want to cut food with a double-edged knife anyway because there you normally put pressure on the back of the blade so... not a good idea with a double-edged knife.
But a stiletto is no tableknife it is meant to stab people.
And I'm not happy with only stabbing, you have far more options if you can also attack with a cut or a slash. Of course you can pretty much rip someone open with the point of a stiletto, but an edge makes a larger part of the blade very unhealthy for the hypothetical enemy.

With a square cross-section you can get a point which is strong enough to puncture just about anything a person might be wearing, but if I was able to slash at an opponent and take the off-chance of cutting through whatever he is wearing while still having a point strong enough to be able to stab him, then I would take the blade that can to both, stabbing and cutting.

So either the off-chance of hurting someone with a cut is so minuscule that there is no reason to even try and make use of it or the point would be weakened too much so that the possibility of stabbing someone would suffer and thus there is no reason to make a blade with a flatter cross-section to allow cutting.
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To derail the thread a bit, this relates to something I've been thinking about lately. I was looking over the dagger fighting techniques and it occurred to me that many of them are not something you'd want to to do in modern situations or if you did you would want to do them VERY quickly. This is because the techniques revolve around rondels and ballocks with relatively blunt edges.

It actually saddened me to realize this, because it really means you can't take dagger fighting techniques whole-sale and use them for effective knife defense in the modern world. Something like the X-block suddenly becomes a dangerous technique if you add razor-edges to the weapon in question. Opponent pulls back with a rondel, great, he just backed up and gave you a scratch. Opponent pulls back with a serious blade, not so great, you're bleeding all over the place.




Edit: Matthew's comment (below) suggests to me that he may be advising me not to try to fight in a mugging. I want it clear that I am not advocating fighting when handing over $20 works just as well. My post was concerning the use of medieval dagger techniques with modern knives without regard for the reasons of their use.

On the other hand, just to play devil's advocate... I would also point out that not everyone who comes at you with a knife wants your wallet and taking the "I'll just cooperate" stance may not help you in the least. (Keep in mind I am not a fighter and lack real skill. I'm saying the skills can be a life-saver in the right situation, not that I have them.)

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling


Last edited by Colt Reeves on Sat 01 Oct, 2011 2:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've studied Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, and most recently Fiore's Flos Duellatorum.

I was also robbed at knife point while abroad.

I can tell you that my defensive response was to hand over my wallet. Had I chosen to fend off my attackers (there were two) could I have succeeded? I don't know. But I do know that loosing my wallet was a much better option then the remotest possibility of a knife in the gut.

I heard a quote some where that "the winner of a knife fight is the man who dies at the hospital", and I believe that holds true.

Anyway, to the original poster, have you looked at main gauches? They have a similar blade shape but longer quillons. Hanwei, Arms and Armor, and Cold Steel all sell several models, I would suggest you check out Kult of Athena's dagger page and see if something jumps out for you.

Best of luck,
Matthew
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Marik C.S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Feb 2010

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, there are some quite nice daggers there which I haven't seen before, I really like the blade of the Kris Cutlery German Stiletto but the handle is better left unmentioned.
If I ever feel inclined to test my talent at metalworks I might get that dagger and try to replace the handle.
But since I like finding new, beautiful daggers - well not only daggers but this thread is about those - I won't call of the search just now.

Also, do you remember where that quote about the man dying in hospital is from?
From what I have gathered playing with those Coldsteel training knives (Playing is the right word, it's more or less furious slashing and stabbing each other at the end of my longsword sparring to get rid of any energy one might have left) there is hardly any confrontation between two knife wielding opponents where one of them will remain unscathed and even minor injuries will be quite rare so that quote hits the nail on the head

Europe - Where the History comes from. - Eddie Izzard
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Talhoffer: "Here the dagger begins. God save us all." A general all-around prayer he thought would go nice there, or does it imply something about dagger fighting? Wink
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about the misericord or rondel daggers from Tod's stuff english cutler line? The misericord does have a pretty small handle tho, but I love mine anyways Happy .
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