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Keith Williams




Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Looking for a late 14th century German Longsword         Reply with quote

I am looking for a good example of a late 14th century german longsword in the style of the Oakshott XVIIIb swords.

I really like the looks of this one from the latter half of the 15th century:

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxviii18.jpg

...but I know it is too late for my target date (1390ish.)

As my focus for many years has been armour, I am not more than generally familiar with sword types from the various centuries and am seeking guidance.

Would anyone have an example (or examples) to which they can point me that would be appropriate for Germany in the 1390s?

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith,

There is a replica of the sword you posted on Albion's page, their Munich: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...xviiib.htm. My apologies if you already know about this; I have the impression from your post that you do not. If you like it, you might as well buy it. Although it's not the specific time period you were looking for, you will probably find the Munich very pleasing to wield in hand.

The problem with XVIIIb swords it that, to my knowledge, none of them date to the close of the 14th century. The XVIIIb's all have a very mid to late 15th century feel to them. I do not think they'd be appropriate for your timeline.

If you can appreciate a slender sword, why not consider going with a Type XVII, like Albion's Sempach? Type XVII swords tend to date to the latter half of the 14th century, and into the beginning of the 15th century, making them an ideal type in terms of being appropriate for your time frame. See here: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_alb_lansem.html

I own a Sempach with a red grip, and it's an extremely elegant sword. The pommel is very distinctive on the Sempach, and makes the sword a unique piece in most people's collection. Swords of this type are excellent examples of the early style of blades made for fighting against plate armour, which should dovetail nicely with your interests in armour. This sword received its name from the fact that two Austrian knights who fought in the Battle of Sempach wielded swords very similar to it. Thus, it is an appropriate style of sword for a knight from the Holy Roman Empire.
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Keith Williams




Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen the replica of that weapon, but realize that it is outside of the specific time period I am seeking. Thank you for pointing it out, however.

While I do very much like the look and distinctiveness of the Sempach, I am looking for something with a longer grip, more in line with the ~10" on the Munich. I do like the look, feel and balance of the slender blades and was hoping there would be something out there that would more fit both my wants and needs.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One source you might consider for gauging appropriate reproduction sword types for your time period of interest is the Albion Europe website. The Albion Europe website has a nice design feature in which swords are depicted with appropriate time-frame for use, and can even be sorted by year, a feature not present on the Albion US site.

http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by...ieval.aspx

I think you'll see that when it comes to longswords in the late 14th century you're looking at Type XVa, XVIa and XVII as the more common blade types.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith,

In my experience, swords with grips of that length really do not belong on most 14th century swords. The only blades which have grips approaching that length are on some of the early warswords, Types XIIa and XIIIa. Most of these swords date to the first quarter of the 14th century or so. But larger grips, especially on the narrower longsword blades, seem to be almost non-existent.

There are a few other types of longswords with very long blades, such as some of the XVas found near the site of the Battle of Castillon, such as this blade:



Again, though, this sword dates firmly to the 15th century, since as you may know, the battle took place in 1453.

My recommendation is either to purchase a sword like the Munich because you like it, or to see if there's a particular longsword with a grip more appropriate to your period of interest which catches your eye.

Edit: In Records of the Medieval Sword, there is one XVII sword, number 6 in his listing, which has hilt furniture that is nearly identical to some of the Castillon swords. Oakeshott dates it to 1380-1425. Personally, given how similar the hilt is to the Castillon swords, I would be inclined to date it circa 1425, since it seems to be more fitting for the 15th than the 14th century. Just the same, I thought you might like to know. Similarly, despite having different hilt furnishings, XVII.9 looks to have a very long grip too, although I am inclined to date it later than Mr. Oakeshott does. It too looks to be a 15th century blade. Regardless, a custom made XVII might be best for you.


Last edited by Craig Peters on Thu 29 Sep, 2011 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are Del Tin swords from the 14th century.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Here are Del Tin swords from the 14th century.


Del Tin 2143, which appears to have the longest grip, most certainly is not a 14th century weapon, despite Mr. Del Tin listing it where he does.
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Keith Williams




Location: Orlando, FL
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
Here are Del Tin swords from the 14th century.


Del Tin 2143, which appears to have the longest grip, most certainly is not a 14th century weapon, despite Mr. Del Tin listing it where he does.


That one looks similar to the Brescia Spadona, if I am not mistaken.

Based on what I have been finding, and what has been stated here, the closest I am going to find to the "Munich" as for style and length, that falls into the late 14th century, is going to be something with a 35-37" blade and, at most, a 8" grip?

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
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Keith Williams




Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
...
My recommendation is either to purchase a sword like the Munich because you like it, or to see if there's a particular longsword with a grip more appropriate to your period of interest which catches your eye....


This is the struggle. Happy


Thank you all for the guidance and direction. It seems I have some thinking and searching to do.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

solution: buy two swords! Laughing Out Loud
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith Williams wrote:

That one looks similar to the Brescia Spadona, if I am not mistaken.


It's not based on the Brescia sword at all. It's based on a different original that dates earlier. I'd have to dig through my books to see which one, though.

Happy

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Keith Williams wrote:

That one looks similar to the Brescia Spadona, if I am not mistaken.


It's not based on the Brescia sword at all. It's based on a different original that dates earlier. I'd have to dig through my books to see which one, though.


I thought it was based on XXa.1 from Records.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to the review here on myArmoury, Del Tin says that it is an approximation of a generic pattern of sword employed at the 14th century battle of Crecy. To me that seems a little early for this sword.

Some have classified DT5143 as a type XIX, others, like Craig as a XXa.

Take a look at XIX.9 and 10 in Records.
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