Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Lutel's two-handed swords. Any experience with them? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject: Lutel's two-handed swords. Any experience with them?         Reply with quote

Hi,

I've long had... well, a longing to own a replica sword based on the renaissance German two-handed swords - you know, everyones' favourites, those man-sized ones with wide quillons with parrying rings and lugs on the (sometimes wavy) blade - and my brief research into potential European smiths and retailers have led me primarily to Lutel Handicrafts. These large swords does not seem to be very widely represented on the market today, which leads me to my real concern - have Lutel Handicrafts managed to recreate functioning and durable two-handed swords that can be handled with force and intent? I can imagine that the normally complex blade mechanics of shorter swords become magnified as the blade gets larger, and that this might be a reason for their scarcity today.

My intent for the sword is for it to be blunt and used only for training practices, for which Lutel's sword has gotten a good reputation. Their offerings are also very decently priced.

I'll include a link to the sword that I'm currently looking at:

http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/?p=productsMo...word-16005

Also, I seem to remember that there was an article or somesuch about renaissance two-handed swords here on myArmoury earlier, but I can't seem to find it now. Where has it run off to?

Thanks in advance. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Nicholas A. Gaese




Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would think the two- handers they make would work fine, keeping in mind that blunt versions in the form that they are made, might make them slightly heavier and more difficult to use.

I think you are refering to that PDF of the Spanish Montante available from the Oakshott institute website. You can also just as well look for teachings of the Italien two-handed sword by Achille Marozzo. Or lastly if you're knowledgable of the usual German longsword, then it would only be a matter of applying the system to a larger sword.

Best of luck, and I'm curious about the lutels as well so your not alone Happy



Regards.
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nicholas,

It seems that I was mistaken, and that the article I was thinking of was on The ARMA site instead. Here it is:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

It shows some numbers for historical examples of these two-handed swords, and the one I linked to from Lutel is actually lighter than average, for its length. I'm really quite curious to get a feel for the two-handed swords that Lutel is offering, and that sword is definitely high on my shopping list... I just need to sell off a couple of dusty oldies to justify it first. Wink

I downloaded the Montante manual just a few days ago, and it could probably work even with a sword of this considerable size. The only potentially related training I've had is with, as you mentioned, the German long sword. I suppose that I could give it a go, even though the two-handed sword is more than twice the weight and one third longer than the A&A Fechterspiel that I'm using. Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message
Nicholas A. Gaese




Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh that article is as they say, an oldie but a goody. Just looking at the info you can tell that weight and length can very quite a bit.

Lol compared to the Fechterspiel I bet it must seem enormous but based on my very limited experiance you might be quite surprised. They can vary just like any longsword/bastard sword/great sword and all those forms the names may inspire, but no matter what the sword orientation may be, A key point in maneuvering these beasts is in powering from the core. Good form and powering motions from the core can easily make up for the increased weight and length but keep in mind theres some things the longsword can do that the two hander can't and vice virsa. The Goliath Fechtbuch is a good source for seeing the two hander from a German perspective though it's from the early 16th century.

Edit: This is a good thread on the use of the two hander: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21519

The Montante manual certainly would work with your sword of choice, but if I were to study the montante in it's style, I'd probably prefer the Lutel model 16001 instead for it's seemingly lighter blade and longer hilt. That's just me though. I prefer earlier style swords myself, like the upcoming Albion Maxamilian (I want it bad but even when it comes out I wont be able to afford it Cry ).



 Attachment: 71.19 KB
16001_16005.jpg
Lutel models 16001 and 16005
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 16005 strikes me as their most attractive large sword, with the detail in the handle, the ball-ends on the cross and the down-turned lugs (or flukes, is it?). Looking around the web I can't find much hands-on information about their two-handed swords at all, save for the smaller one, 16009. I've mailed Lutel-handicrafts in order to get a final word on shipping cost and if it still falls inside my range of resources I will order the 16005. Provided that it arrives in good order I'll be sure to give you a little review with detailed number specifications and stuff. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Nicholas A. Gaese




Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That would be great since as you've said there's no reviews to be found on these swords, and judging by their stats each one is built with very similar proportions. I'd wager that handling and measuring one would give a good perspective of the others (they have the same weight, blade length, and same overall length +/- 1 inch, with exception of 3 of their models).

The 16009 doesn't surprise me really, it's well liked by various European Longsword groups and I think theres a you tube vid or 2 of them in action. Couldn't say for sure.

Looking forward to awsomeness Big Grin



Regards.
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shipping cost was significant but nowhere near large enough to deter me from buying such a magnificent sword. The way things are looking now I will place the order sometime next week.

A slight sense of unease is still gnawing me about the stiffness and POB of the blade, which is something I'd like to know in advance. I've shot them a mail and asked them about this but, given Lutel-handicraft's good reputation among the fencing crowd and my inexperience with true two-handed swords, I'm sure it'll still turn out to my liking. Does anyone here happen to know any general numbers for large swords like this one when it comes to the point of balance and stuff?
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again,

The order has been placed and payment is away, so now all that's left is the waiting phase. Big Grin

I learned through our e-mail conversation that they've recently made a 16005 two-handed sword for a customer in Sweden and, while they didn't measure the exact spot of the POB on the blade, the sword was reportedly well-balanced. They've also visited many museums around Europe in order to match their work with existing originals.

All in all... I can barely wait for the damn thing to arrive right now. Laughing Out Loud

I'll give you updates as they come along.
View user's profile Send private message
Petr S




Location: Czech Republic
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry to spoil the mood, but Lutel has a reputation of making not that good weapons for huge money. I would recommend Pavel Moc, Ludek Voboril, Cervenka or other good Czech swordsmiths. You'll pay similar prize, the quality will be much higher (together with the waiting time, unfortunately).
http://www.curiavitkov.cz
Reconstruction of Czech magnate's courtyard, 1150-1250 A. D.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep, 2011 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Never bought a Lutel - but always considered it.

For me a big selling point has always been that a pretty decent-looking scabbard/belt comes included in the price (at least for the 1-handers I've been looking at).
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Petr,

The only negative aspects of Lutel's work that I've heard on more than one occasion have all been about their swords being a bit thicker and heavier than necessary (although their two-handed swords are, going by the numbers, fairly slim for their size according to the ARMA article further up the thread), as well as having a hint of a modern finish. There are definitely many other swordmakers to consider when placing an order, but none other have such large two-handed swords as a part of their standard lineup.

Perhaps you're talking about the effects of the company's schism some time earlier, where the original Lutel team started the site Lutel-Handicraft while the older site is now run by new people with other smiths involved? I placed my order with Lutel-Handicraft, so their earlier reputation is what I'm following.

And Brian, their two-handed swords do not come with a scabbard like most of their other swords. That's probably keeping in line with history though, since I've read that the larger swords were carried more like halberds, over the shoulder. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:

Perhaps you're talking about the effects of the company's schism some time earlier, where the original Lutel team started the site Lutel-Handicraft while the older site is now run by new people with other smiths involved? I placed my order with Lutel-Handicraft, so their earlier reputation is what I'm following.



Now that's confusing - especially since they're both using exactly the same pictures of their products - and product codes too.. (Surely only one of the companies would have the rights of ownership to them?). How's the consumer to know the difference between the two?
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian Robson wrote:

Now that's confusing - especially since they're both using exactly the same pictures of their products - and product codes too.. (Surely only one of the companies would have the rights of ownership to them?). How's the consumer to know the difference between the two?


Yes, it's quite the situation. I've been following threads such as This One here on myArmoury in order to navigate myself to clarity.
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 4:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I just figured I'd give you a quick little word on the situation. My payment was received without a hitch and the preliminary date of completion has been set to November 26th. I also kindly asked them to provide me with some work-in-progress pictures as the sword is being made, to which they agreed. I'll let you take a peek at those, too. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been following this post but keeping a little quiet over it. i'm kinda in the same quandary. yes i am very interested in the big two handed swords as well. mostly because of the arma article highlighted here and the other aspects of it's construction that allows it an almost dual role as sword and polearm.

i looked over the cold steel great sword for some time - and opted out of it. it's got a piratical price, but i'd like to see something with some blade profile in it and it just seems a little short. the blade also seemed to wide to me, a blade of that with i would expect to have a fuller (even a partial fuller) or two cut in it to take some of the weight out of it.

the swords coming out by albion - their out of my price range and no parrying hooks nor quillon rings.

so i'll be looking forward to your review of the sword when you get it in, in the mean while - i'm kicking around the idea of just getting something custom that wouldn't break my budget if that were possible.
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Tue 29 Nov, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again, friends.

There's been some delays in the completion of the sword. It was slated at first to be completed during this week, but all things are pointing to it being delayed by a week. I hope I'll have the sword in my hands some time during the week after the next.

I'll be too preoccupied to give you anything more than a brief overview and some vital statistics, but that'll be better than nothing for the time being, right? Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2011 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An update!

The sword was shipped late last week, and I should have it in my hands about a week from now. They never gave me any production pictures of the sword, sadly, but I'm still very excited about it. Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright, so I finally received the sword earlier today. I haven't had much time to look over it yet, but it appears to be quite well made, and it is an incredibly striking piece!

Here are some quick numbers for you to process. I've attached the catalogue image of the sword as reference. You'll have to excuse my metric measurements, although I'm sure it won't be a problem for you to convert them if you need to. Also, I'll describe the measurements from the viewpoint that the pommel is the bottom of the sword and the tip is the top of the sword.

Dimensions
Blade length from end of ricasso/just above flukes to tip: ~108cm
Hilt + pommel length: 45cm
Ricasso length (counting the entire leather-bound section): 25cm
Overall length: ~178cm

Cross width: 45cm
Side rings diameter perpendicular to the handle: 6cm
Side rings diameter at widest place (they're oval, you see): 11cm
Widthspan of flukes: 24cm
Blade width: 4.5cm just after ricasso and flukes, gently tapering to 2.5cm just before the point

Data
Weight: 3.5kg
Center of balance/gravity: ~16cm from the cross, just below the flukes on the ricasso
Center of percussion: ~58cm from the ricasso, which makes it about 73cm from the cross and 50cm from the tip

The blade exhibits an appropriate degree of flexibility (coming from one who's never held a sword close to this size before..) and it doesn't feel flimsy or wobbly at all. I ordered it unsharpened since I plan to use it in light drills with training partners, and it arrived with blunt edges and rounded-enough points.

I am quite happy with my purchase so far, although I will be pressed for time to find out anything in-depth about it at this point. Tomorrow I might get the chance to bring this beauty outside the cramped confines of my apartment. I'm looking forward to that. Cool



 Attachment: 179.17 KB
two_hander_16005A.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

now that's a chopper, and you went with the flamberge styled blade fancy. Big Grin

i'm trying to think of the conversion of kg to lb. i can't reference anything in kg to give me an idea of it's weight. but i know the distribution of mass in these swords allows them to be really quick for their size. i'll still be looking forward to how you find the sword preforms next to what you've handled before.

Mad now i want one! actually i've been searching all over the net for a two hander but still didn't find one that was unique enough for myself. instead i'm working on plans for a custom/reproduction fechtschwert sword that seems to fit in the two hander category. once i get off this blasted night shift i hope to get the plans rolling again.
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

1 kg = 2.2 lbs. So this sword weighs about 7.7 lbs
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Lutel's two-handed swords. Any experience with them?
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum