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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject: technique of the dagger into the gaps of breastplate...?         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

I watched "Conquest-Weird Weapons of the Middle Ages (part 3)" on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWbAUVxS2Ig

He shows how to kill the fully armoured men-at-arms.
...stub the eyeslit/armpit/groin with dagger...
Of course we know these techniques... Big Grin
------------------
1st technique: stubs through the eyeslit... (We knowl)
2nd technique: stubs through the armpit... (We knowl)
3rd technique: stubs through the gaps of breastplate... Question Question Question
4th technique: stubs the groin (We know) ummmm... What he saying? Question Eek! Question
------------------

But I don't understand the 3rd technique displayed at 1:11/6:02.
I have very simple question. Question
He slides the dagger into the gaps of breastplate...
My English-hearing is very poooor Sad
So I do not understand what he says...
Sad Cry Sad
I think that he cannot kill a enemy men-at-arms by this way...



Thanks ^^

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Yuri Serebemnick





Joined: 03 Sep 2008

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think like you, it wouldn't kill the man.
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James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Ushio.

I am sorry, but the show "Conquest" is terrible. Virtually everything on it is wrong. Please don't use it to learn about Medieval weapons and armor.

As an example. Look at 0:15 in the video you posted. The producers don't even know how a farming flail works. They are swinging the flails in the bushes like a scythe. I go crazy every time I see that part. The rest of the show is just as bad.
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*Dry tone* I think their use of the flail is the least of their problems. Take a look at the "godendag" they show in one of the "Weird Weapons of the Middle Ages." (For that matter, I wasn't aware crossbows, maces, and clubs were "weird weapons.")


Anyway, if you want something a little more accurate and in my opinion more entertaining as well, I would try "The Weapons That Made Britain," with Mike Loades as narrator and presenter: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=W...n&aq=f

While there are a few points here and there some would take issue with, Mike Loades actually practices the arts he talks about, largely focusing on Talhoffer. He seems to be a jack-of-all trades, master of none sort of fellow, with at least passing familiarity with all manner of medieval weapons and equipment.

Each episode of the show revolves around a central weapon, be it Lance, Shield, Sword, etc. Loades generally gives a brief overview first, then discusses an important battle in English history featuring the weapon, tests it out on a piece of armour, and gives a group of students a crash course in its use. In short, the show is all over the place. One second Loades is talking to an historian, the next he's throwing himself off a horse to disprove the myth knights couldn't get up in armour.

My only concern would be that his mannerisms and excited speech might be hard for you to understand. If all you can get is the video itself I think it would lose a lot...




Edit: And concerning the OP, I agree. If he's very very lucky and the guy is sort of doubled over he might be able to do some damage, but more likely than not he's gonna do no damage at all or only prick him. I imagine if the guy struggled, such a thing might also be likely to snap the dagger or take it out of Woodward's hand.

Now, if he had shown it going up under the bevor toward the throat, I might buy that. Depending on what else the guy had as neck defense that might work fine. On the other hand, if that's the case, why not go sideways around the bevor? It'd be easier...

Bah, Conquest is a joke, good for laughs when you're really bored...

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colt Reeves wrote:
Anyway, if you want something a little more accurate and in my opinion more entertaining as well, I would try "The Weapons That Made Britain," with Mike Loades as narrator and presenter: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=W...n&aq=f
....Bah, Conquest is a joke, good for laughs when you're really bored...


I agree with Colt both on the value of "The Weapons That Made Britain" and the absurdity of Conquest.

Maybe if you find "The Weapons That Made Britain" on video, you can watch with subtitles?

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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Colt Reeves wrote:
Anyway, if you want something a little more accurate and in my opinion more entertaining as well, I would try "The Weapons That Made Britain," with Mike Loades as narrator and presenter: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=W...n&aq=f
....Bah, Conquest is a joke, good for laughs when you're really bored...


I agree with Colt both on the value of "The Weapons That Made Britain" and the absurdity of Conquest.

Maybe if you find "The Weapons That Made Britain" on video, you can watch with subtitles?


I agree with both Colt and T. Arndt above.

As to your question about: 3rd technique: stubs through the gaps of breastplate... ( Stubs ? Strange word I think the program invented ? Or at least not the word(s) I would use ? Stab maybe ? Stub being a Typo ? Confused )

Maybe not with the armour shown as the overlap of the plates seems very wide so that even if one could wedge/slip a blade between those two plates the angle of the blade would be wrong for doing anything more than a shallow surface injury.

But in " theory " at a different place between two plates of armour one might be able to force a blade between " lames " of plate armour and angle the tip so as to be able to push the blade deeply into an opponent.

They may be correct in theory but wrong in the way they try to do it and show how to do it at the wrong place.

A lot of these T.V. shows seem to use actors who really don't know what they are doing following instructions by badly informed experts or just repeating stuff the Director has seen in films or done by stunt men or people only knowledgeable in " Stage Fighting " which is very much different from real historical fighting techniques.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,409

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yeah, agreeing about conquest,
but one thing in the episodes favour is that right in the beginning, when the knight approaches the group he points out a few things reletively obvious to us, but not to the average laymen, he quickly mentions reasons against most ranged weapons i.e when using a bow on him was suggested, that only at close range with a really powerful bow, (and probably a hardened, heavy head for good measure) would you be able to kill the knight outright,
they also quickly dispensed with the ideas of (a) pushing the knight over or B trying to actually puncture the breastplate itself with a sword, saying "ok, with a very sharp sword usinng all your strength and both hands (the guy attempted to do something resembling halfswording) youve managed to penetrate about.. *looks to the other side of the plate* an inch, and in the meantime he has probably hit you several times so i dont think that is going to work"
or just whalloping him with a greatsword, the trainee takes a swing with one, and the knight simply blocks it,
he points out that to defeat an armoured man,woodward remarks 'you can either crush it, crack it open with an axe (ok maybe not that) or puncter it with a spike. or you could go for the gaps, trouble is knowing where they are, and making sure your opponent doesnt use them on YOU.

his show is definately hit and miss, somethings he gets KINDA right, others he completely misses the mark. using butted mail consistantly for one thing, however, im wondering where he managed to get all those plate harnesses.

mike loades is definately the one to go for. if nothing else he does his weapon and armour tests using the royal military college of science's facilities, and uses ballistic media and testing equipment. and his armour is made by reputable people. for example in the longbow episode, he has someone shoot his bow and records the muzzle velocity using high speed camera, and apparently when testing the arrowhead on the breastplate (he is testing crecy, not agincourt) he tests three distances by changing the amount of energy put into the arrows which are shot out of an air cannon. and also places an aketon under the armour, (20, 30 and i think 50 metres away,) ONLY at the 20 metre mark did the arrow have enough force to penetrate enough to pierce the aketon and potentially injure the man underneath it,
naturally, being a show, he doesnt state the exact materials of either the arrowhead or the breastplate

interestingly on the episode on armour, he does the same test on a heat treated milanese style breastplate made by the armourer emrys (known also as master M), and the results are markedly different. while the arrow penetrated the breastpleate it was stopped before reaching the aketon and was, according to loades, completely blunted.
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Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This gentleman has all of the 'Weapons that made Britain' series available if you're interested

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kisk79

My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
Joined: 06 Jan 2008

Posts: 486

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the armour episode he discusses the battle of Verneuil. Does anyone know any good books about that battle?
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

Thanks lots replies! Happy

James Head wrote:
Quote:
I am sorry, but the show "Conquest" is terrible. Virtually everything on it is wrong. Please don't use it to learn about Medieval weapons and armor.

I do not trust this TV-show... Sad
But it's funny Laughing Out Loud So I watch as entertainment.(Not historical learning) Laughing Out Loud Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

thanks

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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