Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > celtic chain, padding? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Rien B




Location: belgiŽ
Joined: 03 Sep 2011

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 6:36 am    Post subject: celtic chain, padding?         Reply with quote

hi

I hope this hasn't been asked before (i used the search but couldn't find it).

Did celtic chain armour have padding?
in the middle ages there is a lot of padding under the chainmail but i haven't found/seen many examples of padded celtic chainmail. Didn't thy used it or is there just no historical evidence of it left or didn't i found it :-) ?

If thy did use padding what material/design's would be used?

This question had me wondering for a long time, because im verry interested in celtic (Belgae) history
hopefully some of you can provide me with a answer.


Thanks
View user's profile Send private message
Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess the answer to your question depends on how we define padding. There is very scarce evidence of padded garments being worn underneath mail prior to the turn of the millenium. Aketons start appearing in western European inventories around the early 12th century. Before that I imagine armoured warriors would have worn thick woolen tunics beneath their mail or multiple layers of winter clothing. Thick layers of clothing can certainly provide the body with blunt trauma protectiion. And contrary to popular belief, mail can still be effective even if not supported by a quilted soft armour.
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Purely from a modern scientific mechanics viewpoint maille would certainly give good protection against draw cuts and low percussive slashes even just worn on bare skin, though it would chafe something terrible. It's likely therefore that something was worn under it, although probably not as substantial as what was used in later ages. Another possibility is rigid components worn under the maille to absorb crushing damage, though there is little or no surviving evidence of it from this time period. Not impossible that one or even both rigid and padded under layers were in use, but hard to prove since we lack the clear evidence of finds.

Note that early iron age celts did use solid metal curiasses and helmets also.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
View user's profile Send private message
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically, right, there is virtually no evidence for padding under mail in ancient times. The only thing I've seen (and many of us have been over this topic many times, indeed!) is a Late Roman reference to the thoracomachus, a padded garment made of heavy cloth, with an extra layer (possibly not attached) of leather to serve as waterproofing. We can also see in artwork that many mailshirts (Celtic and Roman, etc.) have some sort of edging, which *might* indicate an attached lining.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that mail was worn over bare skin with any regularity! A simple tunic would prevent chafing. And I think we mostly agree that mail is more comfy to wear with some padding, at least on the shoulders. But I don't know if it is safe to go much farther than that, and say that they "MUST" have worn SOME kind of padding under it. Face it, having metal skin was a HUGE advantage compared to being unarmored, so it's quite possible that they felt that was perfectly adequate and didn't worry about thumps and bumps.

It should also be noted that various organic armors seem to have been more common than we once suspected among the Romans and Celts of the earlier eras, say 4th to 6th centuries BC. Leather and quilted fabric were probably top of the list. From the little I've seen, it looks like a lot of those dropped out of use after mail was introduced, and all we can do is guess that perhaps some of it survived as padding under the mail. Various scattered instances of padding that we do know about (fragments found inside helmets, behind scale armor, etc.) include wool, linen, felt, leather, horsehair, and straw or grass. In the middle ages, of course, cotton was also used for padding, so it's not impossible that it was used in Roman/Celtic times as well, though I doubt it would be *common* in Celtic areas since it would have to be imported from Egypt or much farther.

We'd love to know more!! Valete,

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rien B




Location: belgiŽ
Joined: 03 Sep 2011

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

clearly the march of time has left us without mutch historical evidence of aincient padding/cloth under mail.
so it remains a mystery :-(

are there reŽnacters or historians how want to make a educated gues or show there celtic armor kit?
I love to see them.

thx
rien
View user's profile Send private message
Zach H.





Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You need to check out Kelitcos, http://www.kelticos.org/forum/index.php
They have great stuff on there for any budding Celtic reenactor.
This thread might be useful to you. http://www.kelticos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=950
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,190

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kelticos doesn't really help for this question. The thread basically says "we don't know". You can make up any interpretation you want for contemporary illustrations and none of them show what was worn UNDER the armour anyway. Textile garments designed as standalone armour are completely different to textile garments worn under mail. The existence of one does not imply the existence of the other.

Kelticos is definitely helpful for putting together a celtic kit though.
View user's profile Send private message
Rien B




Location: belgiŽ
Joined: 03 Sep 2011

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanx for the site

so the question remains :-)
i think i just gonna try layering some tunic's (i try wool but im afraid it will be to hot)

thx
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > celtic chain, padding?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum