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Tim Odell





Joined: 24 Nov 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Historical evidence of how late 14th c. legs were pointed...         Reply with quote

I'm sure this has been discussed many times, but I am looking for any historical evidence of how late 14th century plate legs were pointed and/or supported. I've seen speculations of arming points on the gambeson, vest-like pourpoints, and on chausses. Has anyone found any first generation illustrations, paintings, effigies, or extant armour that show's what's really going on?

This seems to be one of the most debated topics on armour.

Thankya,
T
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

Unfortunately, we have no real evidence right now - only the guesswork, alas.

That's why there's so much debate.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you scroll down http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=29477 there's an inside pic of the Charles de Blois pourpoint. You can see seven laces at the bottom, but on the images below it looks like only two laces are being used to hold up the hose at the sides. I would think the front and back laces would be for the leg armour.
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Tim Odell





Joined: 24 Nov 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a frustrating problem...

TOMAR has what I think is a second generation sketch of some period artwork that shows something that looks like two arming points for each leg on the outside of a pourpoint or gambeson, but I don't remember what he lists as a source.
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Tim Odell





Joined: 24 Nov 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
If you scroll down http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=29477 there's an inside pic of the Charles de Blois pourpoint. You can see seven laces at the bottom, but on the images below it looks like only two laces are being used to hold up the hose at the sides. I would think the front and back laces would be for the leg armour.


Nice! I haven't seen this photo before. It seems unlikely to me that points in the back would work for pointing the cuisse.
Hmmmm.....
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 420

PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
If you scroll down http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=29477 there's an inside pic of the Charles de Blois pourpoint. You can see seven laces at the bottom, but on the images below it looks like only two laces are being used to hold up the hose at the sides. I would think the front and back laces would be for the leg armour.

The evidence seems to be slightly against the doublet of Charles de Bois being an arming garment though (its not cut to fit over armour, it doesn't have wear or rust stains, the outer layer is very ornate, and the large buttons would catch in the hauberk). The sword and buckler fencer in the linked picture has loosened his hose for more mobility ... I think you can wear a given set of hose with different lacing configurations depending on how you want to move.
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