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Rex Metcalf




Location: Western N.C.
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject: Coat of plates question         Reply with quote

Forgive me if this has been addressed before but a search did not turn up the specifics I'm looking for.
My question: Are there any examples or written references of a coat of plates with integral padding?
Thank you.
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The coat of plates, known as a pair of plates in period would not be lined or padded. It was worn over a mail haubergeon. Padding, if any, would be in the foundation garment under the mail.
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rex, there were things like what you describe but later age armour than coat of plates. Look for Plated jacks (with sewn in small scales/plates), but these are mostly from 16th century or even later.

For coat of plates one would normally have used maille and under that a separate padded or jacklike multilayer arming garment, or possibly if you're not fully war equipped town or farmer militia just your normal clothing.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Rex Metcalf




Location: Western N.C.
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My thanks to both of you for your answers. Happy
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T. Arndt




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to clarify:
A knight in the mid-1300s wearing a Coat of plates (CoP) would have the following layers of armor covering the torso?

Outside => Inside:
CoP | Mail Hauberk | Gambeson | Shirt | Flesh/Body

That is some serious stopping power!

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Just to clarify:
A knight in the mid-1300s wearing a Coat of plates (CoP) would have the following layers of armor covering the torso?

Outside => Inside:
CoP | Mail Hauberk | Gambeson | Shirt | Flesh/Body

That is some serious stopping power!


This is exactly what I wear for my SCA kit. As far a blunt force trauma goes; I haven't had a cut, a bruise, the wind knocked out of me, nor a single injury of any kind in years (on my torso, that is Wink ).

Rex, check out more than 20 Wisby coat-of-plates reconstructions from Hoas Hantverk.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 9:53 am    Post subject: coat of plates         Reply with quote

Im planning on making one soon! Got the leather now looking for some plates. Anyone got some tips or tricks for construction?
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the link on the reconstructions, im most interested in number 25 (the lamellar) which a leather adaptation is worn by one of my reenactment members,

ive also heard a similar shaped suit was found at an earlier period somewhere else..
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T. Arndt




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Rex, check out more than 20 Wisby coat-of-plates reconstructions from Hoas Hantverk.

Wintertree Crafts also makes a CoP that looks a lot like the first coat on Hoas Hantverk's page.



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Jens Boerner




Location: Erlangen, Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know of no historical evidence that "padding" was worn underneath field armour whatsoever in the 13th, 14th or 15th century. However, I know of textile armour.
Yeah, modern sca and other people hitting each other with blunt wasters may love the idea of a "padding", but all historical surviving garments worn in kombination or underneath other armour pieces I know are pretty damn stiff and hard. No padding here. In fact, most of them are filled with raw cotton wool and sewn through all layers, giving a yet flexible, but rigid defense which protects very well against arrows and stabbing attacks.
Which is exaktly what you want in combination with a maille hauberk.
The coat of plates or steel plate defenses in general is exactly what changes this in the 14th century, leaving you with possibly only wearing a quilted civil doublet underneath in the end of the century. Mid-14th century you'll find both, however, which is als necessary, since the plates do not cover the whole body.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens,

I might be in complete agreement with you but let me elaborate for a moment just in case.

I do not know if I'd say unpadded is period. The Venetian Senate Papers from the late 15th seem to indicate on several occasions different types of textile garments, one such being padded. Mancini writing of England in the late 15th indicates that in England the padded jacks were more popular in the north but not the south, once again indicating two if not more standard types of garments.

The shift to doublet under armour from the evidence I have seen such as Betrand's Chronicle in the late 14th and mant accounts of the 15th such as ones related to Agincourt such as de Warin indicate aketons and gambesons were in use toward 1450 and later.

With originals it is important to realize natural material will compress with age and that most natural material will get hard. I worked with several late medieval and early modern pieces that had textile liners still that were in excellent condition and I'd call them padded if anything was. The Black Prince 'Jupon' for example clearly at one point was fairly padded.

Now that does not mean they were not semirigid to rigid though.

One of the key issues to me is modern sewing of padded garments by sewing the layers then adding channels that later are stuffed. I have never seen any evidence for this and it creates loads of very weak points where there is only two layers of protection, whereas along the sewn lines my aketons are most dense there and strong.

RPM
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2011 2:14 am    Post subject: aketon         Reply with quote

Hi Rendall,

Im curious, do you make a jacket first to your measurements and than stick it together to make rows? That way you dont stuff it afterwards. Im sorry to go off topic btw. Do you have a picture of your aketon?

Regards,

Sander
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Rex Metcalf




Location: Western N.C.
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/t...-gambeson/

something like this?
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I make the sections first then add the padding. I find cotton is easy to spread out and make sort of into sheets if laid out on a table and pressed down. I then slide the cotton layer in a sew it.

Now with these garments we really have some basic types.

Cotton wool filled
multilayered
and a mixture of both.

We have written evidence for one by the 13th but we still do not know for sure how the 12th century ones were constructed. We actually do not have evidence for type two until fairly late. Type three, the mixed type with several layers of linen, silk etc. with cotton (or raw wool) can be dated earliest to the Charles de Blois garment, though this is often looked a as civilian I see no conclusive reason to exclude it or to assume they were made vastly different.

Now the viking gambeson, well first off we have 0 evidence they did it this way. I like to wear something more than a tunic under my mail for early medieval but that is just me. Second is that this multilayered type of textile armour has no direct proof of construction until the 15th century.

If any one has more info on the subject I would love to see it as I am working on this topic and would love to get it as accurate as possible before it is published.

I just got back from vacation (ended with some serious car troubles.... ehhhhhh) but I will look for the aketon pictures as I can find them.

RPM
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Jens Boerner




Location: Erlangen, Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Aug, 2011 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Jens,

I might be in complete agreement with you but let me elaborate for a moment just in case.

I do not know if I'd say unpadded is period. The Venetian Senate Papers from the late 15th seem to indicate on several occasions different types of textile garments, one such being padded.

->Padded<- in modern meaning or padded in sense of "filled with some kind of textile"? Because something that is quilted and filled with textile does not necessarily "pad", if I understand the english meaning of this word compared to the german one correctly (German "gepolstert" generally means something is rather oft and softens an impact or such).
Nevertheless in italy there survived the fashion from the 14th century of doublets being filled with cotton wool, and being quilted (at least I only know that from italy, might have existed in other parts of europe, too).

Just to put that right: I'm not doubting of quilted garments being worn underneath armour in the 15th century- especially there is a different between the very early and the late 15th century, and some differences between italian and german armour for instance. What I doubt is, that "padding" in sense of a rather soft layer had been worn to soften up blunt force.


The shift to doublet under armour from the evidence I have seen such as Betrand's Chronicle in the late 14th and mant accounts of the 15th such as ones related to Agincourt such as de Warin indicate aketons and gambesons were in use toward 1450 and later.
Do you have citations? Cause "aketon" was also not really defined clearly in the medieval world. Also, the lubeck and stendal types as well as several effifies show textile armour being worn in combination with plate armour in the early 15th century- but they are of a completly different style as the onme discussed here.

Quote:

With originals it is important to realize natural material will compress with age and that most natural material will get hard. I worked with several late medieval and early modern pieces that had textile liners still that were in excellent condition and I'd call them padded if anything was. The Black Prince 'Jupon' for example clearly at one point was fairly padded.

No, cotton wool does compress, but thats a process you aim for qhen quilting. I know several examations and reconstructions of those garments, and they all show a lot of cotton wool layers were compressed during the construction, and resulting in a rather rigid garment. Which, I should add, does "padd" also, but not to the extent reenactors generally have in mind when speaking of "gambesons".

Quote:

One of the key issues to me is modern sewing of padded garments by sewing the layers then adding channels that later are stuffed. I have never seen any evidence for this and it creates loads of very weak points where there is only two layers of protection, whereas along the sewn lines my aketons are most dense there and strong.


Very true. Another idea is of quilting woolen blankets between layers of linnen. Which results of course in something big, heavy- and soft.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Aug, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Just to clarify:
A knight in the mid-1300s wearing a Coat of plates (CoP) would have the following layers of armor covering the torso?

Outside => Inside:
CoP | Mail Hauberk | Gambeson | Shirt | Flesh/Body

That is some serious stopping power!


There are also accounts that place the CoP under the hauberk. this makes sense if you want to fit it tightly without restricting movement unduely.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Aug, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:

There are also accounts that place the CoP under the hauberk. this makes sense if you want to fit it tightly without restricting movement unduely.


That's interesting! Please elaborate Elling. WTF?!
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Aug, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens,

I agree. The terms used for these garments are often left fairly loose. The issue is we have no strong evidence for doublets under plate armour until the Hastings MS account on how a man shall be armed which dates fairly late in the 15th. Even most artwork of the 15th seems to show something that is simply a more form fit aketon. Since earlier ones followed fashion the same is likely true with later ones. In Bertrands Chronicle it is fairly detailed and there is layers given so with this one we can be fairly sure it is exactly what it is. Regardless we cannot discredit the term from being what it had usually been without strong evidence and the way I see it there is none till the Hastings MS that gives enough detail to indicate otherwise.

RPM
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