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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Aug, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Windrose Fiore sparring helmet => klappvisor bascinet         Reply with quote

Hey Everyone,

I recently ordered a Windrose Fiore sparring helmet.



One suggestion I received regarding the helmet is to add a mail covering to the cloth bib and drape combination to make it look more period- a kind of false aventail. I have a couple of ideas I would like to run by-

1. What about a scale aventail. Searching the forums I have found many threads discussing them, but no definative consensus if they are a legitimate 14th century occurrence. I was thinking rather than mail, I could cover the cloth with scales from the Mercenary's tailor. I like this option because it would look interesting and I could do it myself. But it if is not period, I would rather use mail.

2. I was also thinking I could have a klapvisier like visor made to fit to the same specs as the visor's that ship with the Fiore sparring helmet. Anyone out there done this? What do you think of the idea?

Thanks!

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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon 15 Aug, 2011 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I remember seeing what I believe as German/East European illuminations showing scale aventail. I will see if I can find any of the images.

I bought some of Mercenary's tailor scales for for a armour project. I really liked them except that I think that 16 gage, because the way scales overlap, were too heavy for the body armour I was making. If you make an scale aventail, and are going to use Mercenary Tailor's scales, talk to Allan about what you are using them for. Perhaps you can use lighter gage scale and he will make them for you.

m
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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Posts: 226

PostPosted: Mon 15 Aug, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mackenzie Cosens wrote:
I remember seeing what I believe as German/East European illuminations showing scale aventail. I will see if I can find any of the images.


That would be fantastic. Thank you.

Mackenzie Cosens wrote:

I bought some of Mercenary's tailor scales for for a armour project. I really liked them except that I think that 16 gage, because the way scales overlap, were too heavy for the body armour I was making. If you make an scale aventail, and are going to use Mercenary Tailor's scales, talk to Allan about what you are using them for. Perhaps you can use lighter gage scale and he will make them for you.


Thanks for the tip. Do you think 18 gage would be appropriate?

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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depending on what you are using the helmet 18 gauge should be more then enough.

Here are some images. Note that images or scale aventail are rare in my image collection and some of them could well be another way of drawing mail or more of a kind of collar rather then something that hangs form the helmet.

Most of theses images are nice because the show maile and what I would consider scale drawn together. So you can see that the scale is something else and not a short hand for drawing maile.

Note that maile is probably order of magnitude more common in the images then anything that might be scale which might mean maile is a better solution to protecting the neck the scale.



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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Mackenzie Cosens: Nice images, thanks!
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Windrose can make the helmet with interchangeable WMA and Klapvisiers, as below:



If you want a mail aventail, they can do that too, as you can see.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Windrose can make the helmet with interchangeable WMA and Klapvisiers, as below:

If you want a mail aventail, they can do that too, as you can see.
Cheers,
Christian


Fantastic! Too bad I already ordered... I hope I can order a Klapvisiers/aventail after the fact. Windrose should offer the Klapvisiers on their site along with the other two visor options. (Very nice decor by the way)

Is the aventail butted or riveted?

Thanks!

P.S. Following up on this thread (aka being impatient Blush ). Did you end up having an opportunity examine to Scott Wilson's (Darkwood Armory?) new prototype gauntlet at Pensic?

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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posts: 238

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why not, give windrose a call or email http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=contact_us , John should be back from Pennsic. I am sure that he would be happy to make you a clap visor and a get a mail aventail.

m
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The short story on the gauntlets: certainly functional, but not cheap. These will work for those with fatter wallets, but they're not in the entry level category at $700.

Yours,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 5:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
The short story on the gauntlets: certainly functional, but not cheap. These will work for those with fatter wallets, but they're not in the entry level category at $700.
Yours,
CHT


That is unfortunate- If someone ever manages to pull off functional + historical for <$300, I am sure a flood of sales would come their way. Obviously, that is not an easy do, or vendors would have done it.

Thanks for following up Christian.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're welcome.

I also saw those new gauntlets KoA is carrying. With a little work, this might work out. As I suspected, the inside cuff piece would have to go, especially for German practitioners who need to cross their arms.

The downside: if you're using the Windrose helmet, these are the wrong period. However, if you're just using a medieval-ish look for safety gear, this might not matter.

Cheers,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:

That is unfortunate- If someone ever manages to pull off functional + historical for <$300, I am sure a flood of sales would come their way. Obviously, that is not an easy do, or vendors would have done it.


Any vendor that can meet those requirements should throw in a packet of Fairy Dust with every purchase. That's the least we should expect for such a dream. Laughing Out Loud
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The only way to meet such a price point is to have it made overseas. What scares US armourers away from that is that IP quickly gets pirated that way and then they get screwed.

Best,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
You're welcome.
The downside: if you're using the Windrose helmet, these are the wrong period. However, if you're just using a medieval-ish look for safety gear, this might not matter.
Cheers,
CHT


For that reason and wanting to get the most functional item I can, I was considering the Mercenary's Tailor Wisby Type 3 Gauntlets. However, I found another armorer, Crimson Forge, who makes Wisby Type 3 Gauntlets that are custom made to the point of taking measurements of each finger segment, only slightly more expensive, and to my novice eyes, closer to the original Wisby artifacts. Even these are far less expense than $700.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
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“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:

For that reason and wanting to get the most functional item I can, I was considering the Mercenary's Tailor Wisby Type 3 Gauntlets. However, I found another armorer, Crimson Forge, who makes Wisby Type 3 Gauntlets that are custom made to the point of taking measurements of each finger segment, only slightly more expensive, and to my novice eyes, closer to the original Wisby artifacts. Even these are far less expense than $700.


Those sure look nice. Are you a member of armourarchive.org? Sometime it is worthwhile to search Armour Archive for info on SCA armourers, people often post review and such. Crimson Forge may be out of business, which might explain why the prices are low.

Brian Brown http://www.brianbrownarmoury.com/available-no...tlets.html made what looks to be a gorgeous pair of Wisby type 3. His prices start at a realistic $800us according to his website.

Best armour (Czech Republic) http://www.bestarmour.com/gauntlets_7.html have a similar pair for $800us

Gauntlets are hard to get right.
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