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W. Knight




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Wanted: Sutton Hoo Replicas         Reply with quote

Hi,

There have probably been several threads about Sutton Hoo and Anglo-Saxon replica items on this forum, but most are probably old, so I guess one more can't hurt.

I am looking for fairly accurate replicas of items from the famous Sutton Hoo archaeological finds from 1939. Most particularly, sword fittings, at the moment. However, I will likely be seeking the shield decorations and maybe other items as well in the future.

Currently, I have been made aware (through other forums) of Ganderwick Creations, Danegeld, and Raymond's Quiet Press. I assume Ganderwick is the top-of-the-line reproduction company for Anglo-Saxon replicas, and Danegeld is extremely high quality as well (I am considering them for the sword fittings). As I own all of the Sutton Hoo items that Raymond's Quiet Press currently offers already, I know they are surprisingly high quality (considering their price point) as well.

Achieving a level of historical accuracy in my kit like that offered by Ganderwick is not going to work for me, being a college student with a budget to consider. However, I would like a good, as-historically-accurate-as-possible Sutton Hoo kit as I can get, so some high-end stuff will have a place, I'm sure. I guess I want like a 70% in terms of historical accuracy and quality, as opposed to, I suppose, the near 100% one might find in an excellent Regia Anglorum member's kit. Therefore, I may end up with a range of very affordable to very expensive items, and I am interested in info on any and all craftsmen (from mid-level to high-level accuracy) who offer reproductions of Anglo-Saxon/Sutton Hoo items.

Soooo... Considering this is one of the finest arms and armor forums available, I know if there are any other options out there, besides the above mentioned three, someone here will know. I would appriciate any info anyone can provide.

Thanks so much to anyone who can help.[/i]
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W.
I've moved your post out of our Marketplace forum. That forum is only to initiate sales between readers. Since you're seeking info and advice, the Marketplace is not the venue for that. Since you're seeking info on craftspeople, the Off-Topic Talk forum is a better venue.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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W. Knight




Location: United States
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just saw in the forum index where it said "request items you are seeking", so I assumed that would be the correct forum for my topic. Sorry. My request is really for info, not a specific item. This is my first topic posted.

Thanks for the heads up!
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Wanted: Sutton Hoo Replicas         Reply with quote

W. Knight wrote:
Achieving a level of historical accuracy in my kit like that offered by Ganderwick is not going to work for me, being a college student with a budget to consider.


W. Knight wrote:
However, I would like a good, as-historically-accurate-as-possible Sutton Hoo kit as I can get, so some high-end stuff will have a place, I'm sure. I guess I want like a 70% in terms of historical accuracy and quality, as opposed to, I suppose, the near 100% one might find in an excellent Regia Anglorum member's kit. Therefore, I may end up with a range of very affordable to very expensive items, and I am interested in info on any and all craftsmen (from mid-level to high-level accuracy) who offer reproductions of Anglo-Saxon/Sutton Hoo items.


First, welcome to the forums!

Second, the way I see it, the two quotes above do not agree with each other.

The Sutton Hoo burial was a kingly burial. The man who was buried there was extremely rich by period standards.

You, by your own statement, are not extremely rich. In fact, you are a student on a limited budget.

So, what I would suggest is to portray a person who would also have been on a limited budget in 7th C., such as a young warrior or a peasant farmer. That way, you can actually create a kit that would be 99% historically accurate while staying within a limited budget, especially if you are willing to make some things yourself.
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W. Knight




Location: United States
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Paul Hansen,
First of all, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant when I spoke of percentages in regards to historical accuracy. Please look at these photos of various reproductions (ok, the first might better be termed and "abstraction") of the Sutton Hoo helm.









Ok. The first is barely more than a basic shape of the iron parts of the helm--I would say maybe a 10%, at best.

The second has some reasonable attempt at the decorations, but it's proportions are all wrong, and it is mostly stainless steel and brass. A 40%, then.

The third (the one I have) has correct proportions and the decorations look very much like the original. However it is stainless steel, brass, gold plated brass (?) and not even sure what metal the relief panels are. So it can be a 70%, at best.

The final one is (I assume) the Ganderwick version. It is undoubtedly very accurate both in it's proportions and most (maybe even all) of the materials used to construct it. So I would say a 95-100%.

(All of this is IMO, by the way)

The third helmet, despite its shortcomings, is at least a fair replica of the helm. I am attempting just that. A fair replica of the kit. If I were a member of Regia Anglorum, or some other reenactment group, and were making appearances for museums and other important entities, I would of course have no business dressing in a 70% kit. But if I am a student, who is fascinated by the Sutton Hoo, and Staffordshire finds, and have been a medieval enthusiast and hobbyist for awhile, what is wrong with me building a reasonable kit and enjoying it?

I posted this topic simply because I am having trouble finding some of the items for my kit (in a fairly, not totally, just fairly) accurate representation. Yes, my budget is limited somewhat. I don't mind saying, I have spent just shy of $3000 (USD) so far and I still have much more to go. By the time my "70% historically accurate" kit is complete, I will probably have spent between 6 and 7 thousand dollars. To me, that is the type of kit I can really, reall enjoy and it will give me some representation of the kingly appearance the warrior buried in that mound might have had. To you, who have undoubtedly bought single swords that cost that much alone, that type of kit may be inadequate. But I like mine so far and I am sure I will really enjoy it when finished.

So, although I know you meant well, sir, I am disappointed to hear your last statements. Mr. Paul Hansen, is it inappropriate for anyone to build a Sutton Hoo kit without it being literally fit for a king?

BTW, I hope anyone who has any info will still post it here. I love studying the Sutton Hoo finds and that culture, and I am really enjoying building this kit.
[/img]
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr Knight,
I have to say that if you want to build a Sutton Hoo replica kit, then you must go for it and do the best that you can.

I never meant to go as far as I have done, but was very fortunate to meet excellent craftsmen that were interested in the same things that I am and we just kept pushing things further a bit at a time.

I am not sure where your location is or what your first name is but I am willing to give you help where I can.

My helmet, shield and jewellery were all made by Dave Roper (Ganderwick) and there is no reason why you shouldn't approach him. You may find that the embossed patterns for the shield are not too expensive - as he has already made the dies and just needs to beat the designs out.

If you want more details, why not contact me off-list and I will try and help you.


Cheers,

Paul
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W. Knight




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Paul Mortimer,

I assume you are the gentleman in the last photo above? What a privilege to be able to talk to you, as the photos of you and your very historical reenactment kit that are available on the internet have probably been the single most important guide to me as I endeavor to build this new kit as part of my hobby. It is great to have a reference that I know is as historically accurate as possible, based on the knowledge (always being added to, or even changing sometimes) attained through archaeology and scholarly research. I really admire the way you seem to put this principle first in your reenactment, as I see from your new Sutton Hoo sword thread that you are attempting even now to build the most historically accurate sword possible (without a fuller and perhaps other changes?) based on current research.

My kit will have some authenticity sacrificed to work within my current means, but that doesn't mean I can't do the best I can, as you said above. Big Grin I appreciate the encouraging words. When my kit is complete, I hope it will look and function in an accurate way, but will have those sacrifices in materials used and method of construction that are necessary for me.

Thank you for your kind offer to assist me with information regarding the shield. I came across a website Mr. Roper used to have that featured predominantly helms, many of them the Vendel types that seem so closely related to the Sutton Hoo helm, but I had no idea he was the one who crafted the items for your kit. He must be one of the most talented craftsmen in the trade. I'm glad to hear what you said about the shield, and I will definitely contact you in the near future. I won't bother you just yet, though, as I plan to focus on the sword for the moment, but after that, the shield is next (later, perhaps a spear or two, and some barbed angons to finish things off).

If you don't mind, though, I would like to ask two quick questions. Would a woolen cloak, fastened at the right shoulder, be appropriate for this kit? If so, what type of brooch would be used to fasten it? I have never seen pictures of you with a cloak on (instead, a leather overcoat like those seen on the relief panels of the helm, or with furs) and, although I have seen brooches, they seem to be for solely decorative purposes, rather than to fasten something. I am thinking a disc-shaped brooch, but after some reading, the "square-headed" fibular brooches seemed possible also. I'm just not sure...

Thanks for your kind help
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Bjorn ter Keurs




Location: Borne
Joined: 01 Aug 2011

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr Knight,

I am working for some years on a Sutton Hoo kit on a very tight budget ( and wouldn't want it any other way. ) I did a lot myself and I kept pushing myself to a reasonable but satisfying authenticity level. It's not the easiest way, but is a great way to spent spare time. I can help you with practical advice and my experiences with internet suppliers. Just let me know what you're looking for !

My main focus became the overall picture, because the details in my replicated artefacts lacks the sophistication of the real Sutton Hoo artefacts or the next best thing, Dave Ropers artwork. ( @ Paul, you're a very lucky man! )

Most of the fittings in my kit were bought from Raymond the Quiet from quietpress. I used the purse fitttings from his site on my purse and added a costum made bronze and brass rim. I made a wooden inner rim and contacted a bronzecasting company to convert it to bronze. The enamelling I did with colored resin. The outer brass rim was bought at a local hobby shop.

The swordbelt fittings and the swordpommel are also by Quietpress. The sword is a converted monosteel African sword that I acid etched to make it look like it was made of damascus steel. I carved the wooden and bone handle and gilded the two brass parts wich made the cross guard. The scabbard I made from wood and leather.

The helm was made by Warren Ormsby Green of stahlhelm armoury.



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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many thanks, gents, for the compliments.

Mr K,
I used to sometimes wear a cloak but haven't done so for a while. Unfortunately brooches of any kind are almost, but not quite, unknown in male Anglo-Saxon graves; that maybe because people tended to be buried in their indoor clothes. Men certainly wore brooches as there is iconography showing them doing so - but they weren't buried in them. Most images show a circular brooch when worn with a cloak, but whether this is a type of disc brooch or a pennanular is not known. It is certainly a reasonable approach to wear one with a cloak, though and to choose whatever you think is suitable from the period.

Bjorn,
I know Warren Green -- I communicate with him some years ago -- he worked on the Lord of the Rings films and is a very talented craftsman. You have done wonders with that sword and the purse.

Keep up the good work gentlemen! Let me know if I can help.


Paul
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W. Knight




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the useful info on the cloak/brooch issue! Happy


Also, Mr. Bjorn, I think what you have done with your kit so far looks outstanding. I am particularly impressed with what you did with the rim of the purse. And you did it yourself! Wish I had the talent to do that. I have a little experience carving wood, but no metalworking experience at all. Judging by those nice photos, you have done some really creative things that look very good.

As far as what I am looking for, I guess, in a nutshell, just info on any companies or craftsmen who have constructed any kind of replicas of the type of jewelry/metalwork associated with Sutton Hoo.
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Bjorn ter Keurs




Location: Borne
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Paul and Mr Knight,

Thank you for your kind comments on my Sutton Hoo kit !

I defenitely can recommend working with Warren Ormsby Green. He's is a very good craftsman and a pleasure to correspond with. He's just like me a bit of a Lord of the Ring enthousiast.

@ Mr. Knight , I know another maker which makes very good replica vendel helms and vendel shields. Maybe he can make a replica Sutton Hoo helm and shield for you. His name is Grzegorz Kulig and his website is www.thorkil.pl. Amazing stuff !

There is also a Hanwei Sutton Hoo buckle (SH OH3116) around. I believe it's gone out of order, but you could get lucky on ebay.
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W. Knight




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First of all, a note on a comment I made earlier in the thread where I said I had come across a website of Mr. Dave Roper's that featured predominantly helm (many of Vendel period): this was not Mr. Roper's website, but was in fact Mr. Grzegorz Kulig's as mentioned in the response directly above . My apologies for my mistake! I came across this website a time ago, after reading the "Vendel Madness" thread for the first time, and as there are a few craftsmen mentioned as the makers of the helms pictured in that thread, I subsequently did web searches on them all to locate their websites. Somehow, I mistakenly thought this was Mr. Roper's website as I knew "Thorkil" was not the actual name of the craftman (although, if I had looked more carefully, I would have noticed Grezgorz's name under the picture at the bottom of the site's "Contact" info page).

Mr. Bjorn,
A Hanwei Sutton Hoo buckle? Interesting. I never knew that one existed, until now. It has always puzzled me why Hanwei has never chosen to produce a version of the Sutton Hoo sword. My understanding of how their sales of the reproduction helm is, that it sold very well for a long time after being introduced, sales dropped, so they discontinued it...after which, demand for it rose, they brought it back, then discontinued it again recently after sales dropped off again. Not sure if this is accurate, but this is what I understand from a discussion I had with friend of mine. In any case, it sold very well. One would think they (or another sword company) would give the Sutton Hoo sword a try.

In fact, I have always been puzzled by the lack of swords being produced by the mass-production sword companies from the early years of the "dark ages". I know of some generally late Roman era swords being made, but, other than three Del Tin swords currently offered, I know of no other production swords being offered from this period. It looks like a curious gap exists in the timeline of the early middle ages, in terms of the types of swords these companies have chosen to reproduce.

However, there is definitely an interest among collector's in this period, without a doubt, and thus the need for them has resulted in some amazing swords being produced through the custom sword market, so perhaps this gap is not all that bad, all things considered.
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W. Knight




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, my quest to complete my Sutton Hoo kit is one step nearer to completion. I have commissioned the cloisonne sword pommel cap, scabbard buttons, and sword pyramids from George Easton of Danegeld. He has begun working on the pyramids (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1015...amp;type=1). I am hoping to post pics of the finished pieces within a few months. I can't wait! Big Grin
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Philip Melhop




Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Sep, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't believe Warren Green is still making armour etc.
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Peter Lyon
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Apr, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, coming into this a bit late, and a bit OT. I am trying to contact Warren Orsmby-Green, anyone got contact details that they can PM me? I worked with him years ago, and have a question from somebody that wants to contact him.
Still hammering away
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