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Erik Persson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 28 Apr 2011

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Brigandeine around year 1400         Reply with quote

This might have been answered in a previous thread but I haven't found it yet .


I'm locking for a coat of plates / brigandine from the period time period around the year 1400 (1380-1410)

Most of the finds I have seen have been either the Visby finds from 1361 or examples of mid 15th century brigandines.

It would be nice to see what's in between.

I'm mostly interested in the Hanseatic area but finds from all over Europe would probably work.

Al help is appreciated Big Grin
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most I've seen in really good shape in museums are from 16th century or later and with many small plates. Or roughly dated to 15th-16th century or not dated at all in some cases. But these aren't what you're looking for so let's try something else.

Well, "Google is your friend" is true at least sometimes. After befriending said search engine I found some neat stuff that might be a start at least:

Loose plates (1400-1470), but at least these could be 1400 as requested.
http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/CollectionIQP/...ne%20plate

This one has an interesting shape to it. Bent edge on one side, perhaps to not chafe at the neck or catching into some other part?
http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/CollectionIQP/...um=828.102


Here then, dated to about 1400:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsch/802254989/

Looks very nice for a project kit though.

Another link to the same armour:
http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collect...D=40001420

Metmuseum (see link above) has the following info on the piece:
"This armor was assembled and restored in the 1920s using individual elements that had been discovered in the ruins of the Venetian fortress at Chalcis, on the Greek island of Euboea, which had fallen to the Turks in 1470. The purpose was to present a full armor of the style worn about 1400, a period from which no complete armors survive. Distinctive features are the early form of brigandine (a torso defense constructed of numerous overlapping plates riveted inside a doublet) and the brass borders at the edges of the exposed plates. Portions of the brass at the top edge of the left cuisse (thigh defense), the lower edges of the right greave (lower leg defense), and the visor are genuine; the remainder is restored. The helmet, a visored bascinet, is associated with the armor. The velvet covering of the brigandine is modern."

This reminds me I was tasked a while ago by a friend of mine with greek ancestry to find some greek origin knightly armour for him and me to reproduce and kit him with. This'll do nicely I think. He's already got a suitable Bascinet and plate arms and legs so it only needs the brig and some maille.

Here's a brigandine myArmoury thread that might have something too:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...mp;start=0

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd be careful about using the Met brigandine as an example. Bashford Dean put it together and there are questions about how much of it is Dean and how much is historical. It's attractive, though. Happy
Happy

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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some nice repros of the Bashford Dean one (scroll down for the close ups) http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=31415
Everyone says the Met one won't work because the faulds don't articulate, but I'm not sure of this. There is a large gap between the faulds and the chestplate and the faulds only come down to the wrist which isn't very long. If you stand in front of a mirror and see a line across your wrist and pelvis you can see the faulds are rather high on the torso. Also the maille shirt is to short.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just wanted to add this image. The spaulders on the Met harness seem quite rare. This is the only example I've seen in art so far. Paulius B Voss posted this image in 2008. The man in the middle kneeling down.
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
I just wanted to add this image. The spaulders on the Met harness seem quite rare. This is the only example I've seen in art so far. Paulius B Voss posted this image in 2008. The man in the middle kneeling down.


A lot of interesting stuff in this picture in general. Do you perhaps have any info about what it is and a dating?
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting piece from my image library, As found on the net.


Quote:
Livorno area

"This is the damaged suit that has been put togeather in a way that is questioned by scholars - it comes from the Livorno area. It is usually considered to be late 14th century, but, sadly, the reconstruction is questionable."

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11271



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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Bartek, no info. Here's where I found this: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...cale+armor If I had to guess at a date I would say about 1410-1420?
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I'd be careful about using the Met brigandine as an example. Bashford Dean put it together and there are questions about how much of it is Dean and how much is historical. It's attractive, though. Happy


Well, if not then I blame Google for leading me astray. Wink
Looks at least plausible to me though. Very similar to the hourglass full metal chestplates of the same time period, which is probably what Mr Dean used as a template to work from. Also large plates like that won't fit together all that many ways. Though I haven't seen the actual artefacts, perhaps there's just fragments of them to work from and it could just as well have looked nothing like this.

Also I know the faulds work because I've got friends who made the same armour and fought in it for years, apparently with no trouble with movement.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
...

Also I know the faulds work because I've got friends who made the same armour and fought in it for years, apparently with no trouble with movement.


I don't remember seeing any evidence to support the kind of faulds with the large plates being used in the period 1380-1410 outside of Dean reconstruction. Does anyone have supporting evidence for the reconstruction?

m
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Was there evidence for those spaulders until now? Maybe the faulds were just a failure that was soon fixed. I still think it's the coolest thing from the middle ages I've seen. Even if it's not historical I think it makes a great source of inspiration for the kids who see it (and the adults).
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there any scientific papers that mention the method Dean used, his background in the field and the sources he worked from? If this really is faulty, perhaps we can figure out what it really should have looked like.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

It's the fauld on Dean's creation that is problematic. The reason that it doesn't get exposed as such by reenactors/recreationists is that 99% of them fight exclusively on foot. Even given that, if you've worn both the confabulated design and the correct, historic one, the difference in mobility, even on foot, quickly becomes clear.

The fauld on the Dean cuirass consists of single plates hung from the waistline. As they don't collapse - like any of the faulds on surviving pieces - they would inhibit sitting in a saddle.

Yours,

Christian

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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Are there any scientific papers that mention the method Dean used, his background in the field and the sources he worked from? If this really is faulty, perhaps we can figure out what it really should have looked like.


I would expect the the faulds to made of kind of hoop skirt or smaller overlapping plates as this is what you seen in artwork of the period and the few surviving pieces.

I would be very interested in more information about Dean and his collection too.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian, I don't think sitting on a horse would be that difficult because in the 14thc. knights were almost standing in the saddle. I think the real problem might be getting your leg over the horse in the first place.
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I. MIsztak





Joined: 15 May 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You may be interested in this piece of armour. It's from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw. Dated 1380-1420. Made of metal plates and covered with hemp cloth.

[url] https://picasaweb.google.com/105442445371445018217/MuzeumWojskaPolskiego#5593932058908377042 [/url]

[url] https://picasaweb.google.com/105442445371445018217/MuzeumWojskaPolskiego#5593932226249514738 [/url]
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I. MIsztak wrote:
You may be interested in this piece of armour. It's from Polish Army Museum in Warsaw. Dated 1380-1420. Made of metal plates and covered with hemp cloth.

[url] https://picasaweb.google.com/105442445371445018217/MuzeumWojskaPolskiego#5593932058908377042 [/url]

[url] https://picasaweb.google.com/105442445371445018217/MuzeumWojskaPolskiego#5593932226249514738 [/url]


I would love to know more about how this piece was dated. It is very similar to a coat which I believe is in Milan.

I understand that the Milan coat is considered by some to be mis-dated and is likely later (15th - 16th century?) Personally I would like to see supporting evidence for the style to be late 14th Century as I think it make lovely reenactment armour.

m



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Ashley Barber
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Location: Essex, UK
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi My name is Ash, i'm am a full time armourer and brigandine maker. I am new to this forum and was recommended my a friend.

This is a subject i have tried to look in to. In my opinion coats of plates and brigandines are not related. Coats of plates developed into solid plate as metal production improved and developed. Brigandines seem to have developed to improve armour for the lower classes as materials became more readily available.
There seems to be a gap between them from when coats of plates faded out ane brigandines came in. There are some what i would call transitional pieces out there but evidence seems few and far between. Fabric covered breastplates that some call corazzinas may be a slight cross over. I persoanaly believe corazzina to be a general term for protection as its definition seems to be very broad. I may be proven wrong.
It can also be hard as some reconstructions or restorations have been made where no referance has been available. I have seen a few in museums which in my opinion are upside down or have been put together by eager Victorians wanting something for their collection. These are only my thoughts as a practcal everyday maker.


Ash

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