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Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
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Posts: 245

PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: A question about Merc Tailor 16thC elbow copps         Reply with quote

Hi,

Merc Tailor has on their site an elbow cop called "early 16th century elbow copp". (They also have images of the original they based it off of in their originals gallery)

http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=127

To me these look a lot like some couter's you see on later 15th century armour as well. My question is if these would work as couters for a 1470's arm harness?

I hope someone on here can help me, because they look a lot like 15thC couter's, but I just want to make sure before I add them to my savings budget.

Any help here is appreciated. Happy



 Attachment: 98.62 KB
Elbow copp.jpg
This picture of the original from their site probably shows the form of it the best.

"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Floating elbows were popular on gothic-style armor, but they usually were of a different style. Take a look at "extant XXX armor" spotlight topics. Here is one about gothic armor: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21487. A couple of harnesses feature more or less similar couters, but they all are dated around 1475 1500 which puts the most probable date around 1485.

Two most distinct features of Merc Tailor couters ate plain style with ridge going "across the elbow" and a "wing", i.e. the widest part of the couter is at the side of the arm, while on most gothic harnesses the widest part is at the elbow "tip". Search for "Bildindex 15.c field harness, Munchen, Bayerisches Nationalmuseum" in the above-linked topic and compare the last two harnesses in that post and you will see what I mean. Both features are very rare in the 15th century, but both are present.

There is another problem with these couters: edges are rolled inwards. As far as I remember this "technology" became widely-spread very quickly somewhere in the very late 15th century and was virtually unknown before. Maybe more knowledgeable people could comment more on this.

My personal opinion is that these couters are pretty OK for 1475-1480 "plain gothic" style kit, for example French or Italian with german influence but would better suit kit that is "later" than 1485.
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Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 245

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your opinion and I see what you mean.

I had looked through the Gothic armour thread alot and one picture there made me wonder if it would have possibly been good for 15th century.

This would follow what you say though, as I beleive this harness is from 1480.



 Attachment: 43.21 KB
Leeds---Royal-Armouries-gallery_361_1266057m-Doug-Strong.jpg
The elbow on this harness looks really similar to me.

"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 10:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The one you posted is fluted, so not quite similar. These IMHO look more similar:


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Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 245

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, yeah I see what you mean. Those do look alot more like it. Thanks. Happy
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have the MT cops on in this pic if you want to gauge the size.....



you can see how they are both strapped and pointed. tr
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom, those seem awfully big and flat flanged, do they restrict movement or tend to slide forward from the elbow joint? Usually when I make cops like these I want them to be as angled out and thin at the elbow crease as possible. Then you don't even notice you're wearing them.

By the way, the rest of your kit is awsome. I have a soft spot for the corinthian barbutte as well as dark maille. Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Sat 23 Jul, 2011 1:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They do look too big, but 15th century has seen some enormous couters. But they also seem to be attached incorrectly. When a hand is bent 90 degrees couters should be at roughly 45 degrees like on the last photo in my previous post while on the photo they are in line with the forearm.
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