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Justin Lee Hunt




Location: North Baltimore OH
Joined: 28 Jun 2011

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Period knee and elbow defence.         Reply with quote

I'm a 6'2" guy that portrays English nobility in the war with the Scotts (late 13th C, since they went around a few times). I don't like long sleeved maile so I went with short and wear hardened leather vambraces. I haven't been able to afford custom maile leggings or hosen so I am making a pair of greaves based on the Maciejowski Bible David and Goliath. I will be wearing them with a pair of padded chausses that are being made for me by our group's seamstress, who in exchange for dues exemption, does work for the group at cost (and in her own good time, which is still fairly quickly). I figure if that configuration worked for a giant, it can work for someone just slightly taller than average Razz . But these choices left me without defence for my knees and elbows. Our group doesn't require the use of knee and elbow protection, but it really is a good thing to have, especially as nobility. Any suggestions would be helpful. Links and pictures too. I'm no expert, but I can make a few armor pieces, but I have trouble finding reference material for these pieces in that era.

Thanks,
Sir Didymous LaRoth, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Rouse Clan


I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a few suggestions:

For the knees:
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=95

Same but with a round plate on the side:
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=118

For the elbows same styles:
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=94

http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=117

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good morning Justin,

You may already be aware of Effigies and Brasses, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. This is a very good site for preliminary research.

Very nice start to your kit by the way! Happy

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Effigies and brasses is a great ressource for such things. When you have your design you can also go full custom. I got a pair of elbow cops from Jiri Klepac at a very reasonable price.
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Period knee and elbow defence.         Reply with quote

Justin Lee Hunt wrote:
I haven't been able to afford custom maile leggings or hosen so I am making a pair of greaves based on the Maciejowski Bible David and Goliath.


You should probably know that Goliath's greaves in the Maciejowski bible are an anachronism. He is depicted with greaves because the bible specifically says that he wore (bronze) greaves when he presented himself to the Israelites, not because greaves were worn back then:

Sam. 17:6 wrote:
He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders.


That probably also explains why the greaves in the Mac bible look so strange and straight. The author didn't have any idea what greaves really looked like because they weren't used at the time.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander is correct!

And for the knee and elbow cops... In 1250 they were - as far as I know - not yet invented. Take a close look at the knights and footsoldiers in the mac bible (which can stand as a source only for france): they don't wear those cops but padded/quilted armor around the upper tighs (called Diechlinge in german) or maille. These could later in the 13th century be reenforced with leather or small metal plates at knee level.

Best wishes, Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

greaves are anachronistic for late 13th century, but schynbalds (pretty much greaves without a back plate) were used in the early 14th century.
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Justin Lee Hunt




Location: North Baltimore OH
Joined: 28 Jun 2011

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: Period knee and elbow defence.         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Justin Lee Hunt wrote:
I haven't been able to afford custom maile leggings or hosen so I am making a pair of greaves based on the Maciejowski Bible David and Goliath.


You should probably know that Goliath's greaves in the Maciejowski bible are an anachronism. He is depicted with greaves because the bible specifically says that he wore (bronze) greaves when he presented himself to the Israelites, not because greaves were worn back then:

Sam. 17:6 wrote:
He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders.


That probably also explains why the greaves in the Mac bible look so strange and straight. The author didn't have any idea what greaves really looked like because they weren't used at the time.


Thanks to everyone who offered information on this, it really is a tremendous help. I don't have much time to research since I have been moved to second shift at work, hence the late post times. I looked over most of the material here and have seen a few examples of what appear to be leather reinforcements on the knees of some of the effigies. And as was also pointed out to me the proper term for what I am working on is schynbald, I couldn't think of the term to save myself and went with the closest I could remember. I figure since my persona traveled through Germany, he may have seen an early form of schynbald and added them to his kit.

As to the quote above; for the most part I want to agree with the anachronistic interpretation of Goliath's armor, but it was also said that her wore a bronze coat of scales, and I would have figured that to be depicted. http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8081/MediaMan...frame5.jpg

With the knees, I'll most likely go with sewing plates to the padded leggings. It's cheeper and I can shape the plates my self. With the elbows I think I might go with a pair that I saw here: http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/PICT4982.JPG.
Bare in mind that the Mac Bible is about 40-50 years before my portrayal, who was born 20 years after it was created.

The good folks at Schmitthenner made a custom cuirass for my nine year old niece who has had heart surgery. She just started her squireship with my wife, and though she does not yet spar, a trip and fall onto a wooden sword's guard could do more damage than I care to think about.

Oh, and Scott. Thanks. It's not actually a start, it's a refining of several far less period kits that I have put together for sport combat. I have worked them into an early period kit, the kit in the pic, and a late 14thC kit. All are portrayals that my group is wishing to start offering for shows and such.

Note I edited to add links because none of my attachments loaded. I've had a fair deal of trouble with that as of late.

I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com


Last edited by Justin Lee Hunt on Fri 22 Jul, 2011 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let me know if you want any info on how to hammer knee cops like the ones jean posted from plate if you want to make your own. I've done quite a few and actually hold regular crafts classes in the subject.

Also, if you're not supposed to have knee cops for the time period you're depicting you could still sneak low profile knee protection under the maille or clothing. I've made several SCA armours with practically invisible armour like that (as in I've gotten stopped by markshalls trying to enter the list seemingly unarmoured), and I guess these you use could be made less joint encompassing that those, showing even less. Again, just let me know if you want any pointers on how to make them.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Look for Ralph Nesle's equipment for late 13th nobility. The guy had a full suit of armour of ten by the time he is killed in 1302.

The top tier of nobles had access to more or less full armour of plates by the 1290s. Not as refined as those of 1330 or there after but still they had armour of plate head to toe.

RPM
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Justin Lee Hunt




Location: North Baltimore OH
Joined: 28 Jun 2011

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In what little time I've had to search this I found this.
http://www.13c.ru/texts/blair.pdf
Pages 37-52 were of particular interest to me, though I found many of his statement to be speculative, and many of his sources are un-named. He also didn't take the time to translate his French quotations. This is a problem because my French is just good enought to get my face slapped.

Any thoughts?

I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that the period thing you can have for knee protection in your era are those padded/splinted thigh defences that go over your maille legs, with attached disc-like knee protection. I'll see if I can find a picture of what I mean.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 3:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Take a look here:

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

The earliest good view of knee cops (although there are many more shown) seems to be Sir John D'Abernon which it indicates died at 1277.

You'll note though, that the prevailing style for the period is full mail sleeves and chausses. The non-mail armour seems to be supplementary to a full-mail core (my opinion is that it patches the weaknesses of mail - which is when streched tight over bent joints like the knee and elbow).
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Justin Lee Hunt




Location: North Baltimore OH
Joined: 28 Jun 2011

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
I think that the period thing you can have for knee protection in your era are those padded/splinted thigh defences that go over your maille legs, with attached disc-like knee protection. I'll see if I can find a picture of what I mean.


I have ran across a few pics of these. It seems likely that I'll probably end up going with something very simillar. The problem is the elbow thing. I simply despise the feeling of long sleeved hauberks. I'll most likely end up attaching small round pates, akin to those on the cuisses, onto the elbows of my heavy gambeson sleeves, which I'm wearing in the video below. (Not the best fight, but we had both been awake for a solid 28hrs by this point.)

Quote:
Look for Ralph Nesle's equipment for late 13th nobility. The guy had a full suit of armour of ten by the time he is killed in 1302

I haven't been able to find this inventory list. I'm still looking. In the process though, I did find order commissions from this period requesting leather helms and even cuirass. That struck me as a bit odd.
http://youtu.be/BfoLrrhVjD0

I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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