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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The XVIIIc from the Metropolitan Museum in New York Reply to topic
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: The XVIIIc from the Metropolitan Museum in New York         Reply with quote

Hi there,

I have been interested in the XVIIIc variant for some time now and decided to have a blunt version for sparring made for me.

The example of this type I found most impressive was the one now displayed in the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

Now I gathered a sufficient amount of information about the general characteristics of the type and especially about the specimen from Leeds Castle.

In this thread Peter Johnsson kindly shares the specific measurements of the Leeds castle sword he took and later describes the Met-sword as being very similar but with a bit shorter blade.
Now when I look on the photos of both swords accessible here on this forum, I find the Met sword's blade looking a bit broader and more "massive". But I cannot validate this because I cannot find any measurements of the Met-sword.

If anyone here does have some measurements or other photos from the actual Met-sword to share, it would be much appreciated.


Ah, now that's the sword (the one in the middle) I am talking about. by the way:



Best regards and thanks in advance
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know the answer to your question, but here's a blunt based on a similar sword at Royal Ontario Museum:

http://www.darksword-armory.com/1368-Gothic-Sword.html
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick reply.

That's certainly a nice sword wich I wasn't aware of yet, but more of a type XIV, isn't it?

Also, I already gave the order to a polish sword maker ( Szymon Chlebowski )
He will make the sword according to what information I can provide him with (and what he already has at hand), so the more information I have, the nearer will it come to the original.
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Dan Dickinson
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Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to Clive Thomas's Park Lane article, A Distinctive Group of Swords from the Arsenal of Alexandria, the stats are as follows:
Overall Length: 111.125cm
Blade Length: 86.5 cm
Blade Width: 8.8cm
Blade Thickness. 5.5mm
Cross Width: 31.4 cm
Pommel type: 1 (Oakeshott's I)
Weight: 1665g (3lbs 11oz)

I hope this helps,
Dan
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
I don't know the answer to your question, but here's a blunt based on a similar sword at Royal Ontario Museum:

http://www.darksword-armory.com/1368-Gothic-Sword.html


I am afraid I don't see even a remote similarity between the posted sword and the sword linked on Darksword website. They are two entirely different creations. That DSA sword is supposed to be a Type XIV of some sort.

Here is the link to a Type XVIIIc designed by PJ for Albion called the Alexandria which they should have in production soon:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19976



Quoted from PJ:

Dimensions for our Alexandria are:

Blade length: 880 mm
Blade width: 79 mm
Complete length: about 1110 mm

I cannot present data on final weight yet. These are rather hefty swords of large dimensions, but the balance is very sweet and agile.


The dimensions are pretty similar between PJ's concept and the Type XVIIIc you are looking at. Happy

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Splendid, thank you all very much!
This is exactly the information I was looking for.
It's quite massive with it's 1665g I wonder how my blunt one will behave
.
Dan, is there any source were I can obtain the article you posted?
These swords are really awe-inspiring beasts. I'm curious to read more about it.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Till J. Lodemann wrote:

Dan, is there any source were I can obtain the article you posted?
These swords are really awe-inspiring beasts. I'm curious to read more about it.


That article is in the 20th Park Lane (London) Arms Fair catalogue. More info here: http://www.londonarmsfair.com/catalogue.html .

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm glad that you posted this one... I actually have a funny story about this. I found and downloaded this picture before, but couldn't remember where I had gotten it from. When I saw the Alexandria I thought that maybe the museum might (perhaps and maybe) be displaying one of Albion's beta swords... ha. I'm glad that you wrote this post before I gave in and asked.

Also, 8.8 cm at the base is quite broad. Wow. Even the two Albion XVIIIc's are not planned on being this broad.

Eric Gregersen
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Knowledge applied is power.
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Chad! I'm looking forward to read it.

Eric, yes, it really is quite broad. That' one of the reasons why I like it so much.

The sword I ordered is finished now and I have recieved some fotos of it, here is one I like to share with you:





It's 1700g, my smith says. Quite light for a blunt version of this sword. Note that he changed the terminals of the crossguard after the picture was taken to the stile of the original (like the one on the draw of the Alexandria by Albion). It's on it's way now and when I have recieved it, I will share a foto or two of it's final form :-)
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am drooling over that last picture you shared. I can't wait to see more of this one. The XVIIIc's are so rare. It's really nice to see one.
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some more of the pictures he sent me.
A detail of the hilt:


and of the tip:
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
I am afraid I don't see even a remote similarity between the posted sword and the sword linked on Darksword website. They are two entirely different creations. That DSA sword is supposed to be a Type XIV of some sort.


Here's the sword I was talking about below, and you're right; its a type XIV. But from what I understand, the DSA sword also incorporated elements of the sword under discussion here, i.e., its a loosely based hybrid of the two (unless he's talking about a 3rd sword at the same museum I've never seen). It was just a bit of sword trivia.

Back to the topic; the blunt version replica shown above is turning out very nice indeed.



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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
JE Sarge wrote:
I am afraid I don't see even a remote similarity between the posted sword and the sword linked on Darksword website. They are two entirely different creations. That DSA sword is supposed to be a Type XIV of some sort.


Here's the sword I was talking about below, and you're right; its a type XIV. But from what I understand, the DSA sword also incorporated elements of the sword under discussion here, i.e., its a loosely based hybrid of the two (unless he's talking about a 3rd sword at the same museum I've never seen). It was just a bit of sword trivia.

Back to the topic; the blunt version replica shown above is turning out very nice indeed.


I would agree Type XIV if the blade beyond the fuller is of elliptical section and more a Type XVI if it has a diamond section of a ridge in the section beyond the fuller.

I think that a lot of Type XIV and XVI as substantially the same functionally but the Ideal Type XVI has a more rigid point because of the diamond section. There seems to be a lot of swords that could be classified either way if the diamond section or ridge is very rounded or soft due to design or just wear or corrosion.

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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep, 2011 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there measurements available for this sword? I felt like type XVI would have a more slender blade then type XIV, not just a matter of the crosssection.
Anyway, Typology is always difficult in mainly functional items. And these blades were not made to fulfill the requirements of a certain Oakeshott-type, but to be working tools to harm people.Typology here merely gives us a word to describe a certain ideal form, and some blades approximate two of these ideal forms, not just one.
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, the sword has arrived now. I don't have much time to do good fotos just now, but here are some stats:
Blade width: 96mm (!)
Blade length: 86cm
Weight: 1790gr
PoB: 98 mm from crossguard
Center of Percussion 54 cm from crossguard
Grip length: 21,8 cm
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any chance of getting some pictures of this sword? Would be much appreciated Happy.

I have an Alexandria but its big problem for me is that the grip is to small, i have huge hands and i just can't grip it correctly.
This one with 21 cm + pommel seems like the solution, not to mention XVIIIc is my absolute favorite type.
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