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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Pointing through Maille         Reply with quote

Hello all, I was wondering if you could clear something up for me.
In the early14th century to the early 15th century, knights wore an arm harness with maille underneath. This is far too early for buckling onto any form of neck-defense, so they must have been pointed on. Does the maille overtop the garment affect the pointing in any way? I would see it possible to thread the points through, but threading through maille seems like a real chore. Was there any special way of pointing over top maille, or threading the points through?
Another thing, is how does one get maille to sit well underneath plate? Is there any special method used to keep it from bunching up underneath the plate? I would really see this as a problem in the late 14th century when entirely integrated (attached spaulder) arm harnesses were worn over a haubergeon or hauberk. Is there any way this problem is dealt with?


-All help is greatly appreciated
Nathan Quarantillo

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pointing through maille is actually not hard at all. I would use leather or silk for pointing through maille. Typically, you will need help in donning armor anyway: your "valet" should be working to pull points through the maille links. Don't worry about the point getting mangled as historically they were replaced often (if you could afford full harness, you could afford to replace the points and often).

As far as bunching up under plate, if the maille is properly tailored (which most off the shelf maille is not), then there is no bunching issues. Also, a proper foundation garment, such as the grande assiette sleeve pourpoint, wiIl help immensely. I would recommend you take your haubergeon to an armorer who does work on maille and have it tailored to fit you. It will be more comfortable, more historically accurate, and look better.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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William Frisbee




Location: South Shore, MA
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Pointing through Maille         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Hello all, I was wondering if you could clear something up for me.
In the early14th century to the early 15th century, knights wore an arm harness with maille underneath. This is far too early for buckling onto any form of neck-defense, so they must have been pointed on. Does the maille overtop the garment affect the pointing in any way? I would see it possible to thread the points through, but threading through maille seems like a real chore. Was there any special way of pointing over top maille, or threading the points through?
Another thing, is how does one get maille to sit well underneath plate? Is there any special method used to keep it from bunching up underneath the plate? I would really see this as a problem in the late 14th century when entirely integrated (attached spaulder) arm harnesses were worn over a haubergeon or hauberk. Is there any way this problem is dealt with?


-All help is greatly appreciated
Nathan Quarantillo


My current setup is done much the same way. I wear a nice flat ring, wedge rivet haubergeon under my harness. I'm wearing a late 14th century kit, based around Churburg stuff.

My points come off my joupon/arming coat, thru the maille and to the plate.

I have no issues with my maille bunching up because it fits me properly.

My arm harness is worn OVER the mail which comes down to my elbow.


Here I am getting beat up by Ken M.

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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh, immensely helpful!
So to whom would I go to get maille tailored?

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Ahh, immensely helpful!
So to whom would I go to get maille tailored?


You could tailor it yourself. I recently began trying to tailor the sleeves of my haubergeon and I just purchased a bag of loose rings and rivets along with a rivet setting tool (which you can also make yourself) from kult of athena. You can get various ring styles and rivet styles from them. Here's a composite photo of a before and after of pre and post-tailoring of my sleeves. I just cut a line down the bottom of each sleeve and then had my wife mark where it should be re-attached around my gambeson and then began attaching and riveting new rings to form the new seam. Then I cut away the excess. It's not as pretty as it could be, but it surely gets the job done.



With respect to pointing through maille, I recently re-watched Reclaiming the Blade, and there's a glimpse around 1:02:20 (it's netflix stream-able btw), you see someone pointing spaulders through maille. But in his case, it looks as though he has cut a small hole in the maille right where his points are located to facilitate finding and pulling the points through. This seems very feasible to me, just make a small opening in your haubergeon above your points and it becomes a lot easier to point through it. The opening in the maille is about to be covered with plate when you point it, so the 'gap' in your defense is negated by it's ultimate purpose. Don't know if there's historic precedence for that, but it seems very reasonable, and a simple solution to this. It would also reduce the chafing on your points that would occur when they are literally pulled right through the middle of one of the rings.

-Ian

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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So what did you do to tailor the torso of the haubergeon? Was the project difficult? And do the rivets and the tool come with instructions?
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
So what did you do to tailor the torso of the haubergeon? Was the project difficult? And do the rivets and the tool come with instructions?


Nathan,

I did not adjust the torso, the only difference is I have a belt on in the right picture and not in the left. The torso fits fairly well for off-the-shelf so I'm leaving it as-is for now. The sleeves though, as you can see were ridiculously too big for my arms. Tailoring the sleeves took me most of a Sunday to do, and I have minimal experience doing such things.

The tool did not come with instructions, but it's literally just a long handled pliers with a little divot on one side to set the rivet in, then it's just a matter of squeezing. The worst part was my hands were sore at the end of the day, but it wasn't particularly difficult, and I imagine it's a LOT less expensive to do yourself.

If I were going to make the torso tighter, I would just remove a number of rows of rings, and then seam up the two edges. I would most likely do this right down the center back of the haubergeon so it doesn't interfere with the armpit area.

-Ian

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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jul, 2011 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh, ok. So where did you get the haubergeon? and what is your chest size (Just for comparison)?

EDIT: what did you use to cut through the rings?

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jul, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Ahh, ok. So where did you get the haubergeon? and what is your chest size (Just for comparison)?

EDIT: what did you use to cut through the rings?


It's a flattened ring riveted stainless haubergeon from Icefalcon. The extra rings though are GDFB rings / rivets. Icefalcon does offer a bag of loose rings and rivets, but it's $100 and contains way more rings than I needed. The GDFB loose rings are fine and the bag is like $25 and I didn't even make a dent in the number of rings when I tailored my sleeves.

My chest size is 42'', over the padded gambeson it's closer to 44''. The Icefalcon size Large is 44'' and it fits great in the torso while wearing arming clothes underneath.

For cutting the rings, I just used standard wire-cutters like you'd find at the hardware store.

-Ian

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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jul, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright, thanks. So does maille chew up arming doublets?

Would revival clothings survive?

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jul, 2011 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Alright, thanks. So does maille chew up arming doublets?


It shouldn't. But some really cheap riveted Indian maille can be quite thin and sharp.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And neither will it if the rivet peen is worn to the outside. Cheap Indian mail works but it has some nasty rough and sharp edges as Sander mentioned.
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So how about the GDFB Ulthbert maille?

The wedge-riveted/solid flat ring stuff.
I know you have some experience with the brand Mr Sander

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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I point though maille all the time with no problem. Most of the time, I just leave the points tied in and remove the plate component. That way, It's easier to put the pieces on yourself later. Or sometimes, in the case of some smaller pieces (elbow cops, spaulders, besegues, etc), I can point them on BEFORE I put on the hauberk and tighten them after I shimmy into it. Never had an issue with it myself. Happy
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
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"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
I point though maille all the time with no problem. Most of the time, I just leave the points tied in and remove the plate component. That way, It's easier to put the pieces on yourself later. Or sometimes, in the case of some smaller pieces (elbow cops, spaulders, besegues, etc), I can point them on BEFORE I put on the hauberk and tighten them after I shimmy into it. Never had an issue with it myself. Happy


Are we talking about the same thing? Are you leaving your gambeson inside your maille at all times and you wriggle in to both garments together? It would be impossible for me to get into my gambeson while it's buttoned inside a haubergeon. We're talking about points attached to the gambeson, being pulled through maille, and thence to the plate. It sounds like you're talking about pointing directly TO the maille. I'm just trying to clear up potential confusion.

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Adam D





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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we're on the subject of maille; I am looking into purchasing some for use with blunt steel trainers. Does anyone have any opinions on any of the relatively affordable ( ie cheap import ) maille? Any thoughts on the Windlass Stainless Steel? There is a person locally who is selling the windlass stainless steel butted set for 100 dollars. I realize that the less expensive butted maille will not hold up as well but I figure it would be cheaper and easier to replace broken rings in the short run than to spend close to $1000 on riveted maille.

Also, I know a person locally who makes maille and would build me a suit for free if I supplied the materials and I was looking at using the Ringlord to get my raw materials. I was leaning between 16g Stainless Spring Temper 1/4" ID Rings, which would have an aspect ratio of 4.5 and weigh approximately 18 pounds or 14g Stainless 5/16" ID Rings, which would have an aspect ratio of 4.2 and weigh approximately 27 pounds. Would the Spring Steel be stronger than the normal Stainless even though it was a smaller gauge? I like the fact that it would be 9 pounds ( 1/3 ) lighter than the regular stainless. The materials for either set would cost about 205 dollars so price isn't really a factor between the two options. Also, this would obviously be butted just like the cheaper stuff online as I can't seem to find a source that sells riveted rings for maille.

So, after all that rambling; any thoughts on having my own commissioned and what various brands is everyone using and how do they feel about them?
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If your only concern is durability, then you can't beat Ringmesh.com


Not accurate AT ALL, but from what I hear it WILL handle punishment. I hear quite a few SCA guys will swear by the stuff.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Adam D





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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had seen Ringmesh.com and I was considering that as an option; however with a gambeson their medium is too small and their large is too large. With the links being welded and all I wasn't sure if I would want to tailor fit a large down; I could cut it and run butted rings down the back as I probably won't be taking too many hits back there. ; ) However, it also doesn't give much of any information about the product. It provides measurements but no weight, no diameter, no anything useful in considering it against other offerings.

Has anyone hit it with a steel sword and seen what happens?
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not 100% certain but Jeremy O'Neill and Dale Gienow both sported mail very like that in our ROM 2008 tournament. I thought I had killed Dale when I put my rebated sword through that stuff and down the inside of his breastplate. I most assuredly would not trust my life to it.

It looks exactly like the material of my butcher gloves. While I think it is excellent for handling razor sharp leather working knives in difficult projects (or I suppose, cutting meat) only a dreamer would think something so fragile could stop a blunt weapon thrust, let alone a thrust from anything sharp. Sorry, it is decoration for field harness.
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Adam D





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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
I am not 100% certain but Jeremy O'Neill and Dale Gienow both sported mail very like that in our ROM 2008 tournament. I thought I had killed Dale when I put my rebated sword through that stuff and down the inside of his breastplate. I most assuredly would not trust my life to it.

It looks exactly like the material of my butcher gloves. While I think it is excellent for handling razor sharp leather working knives in difficult projects (or I suppose, cutting meat) only a dreamer would think something so fragile could stop a blunt weapon thrust, let alone a thrust from anything sharp. Sorry, it is decoration for field harness.


You are referring to the Ringmesh.com stuff right?
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