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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sat 25 Jun, 2011 7:15 am    Post subject: Historical grilles in helmets?         Reply with quote

I have a problem what to think about this picture (helmet with "grill"):


Is it something real or just a passion scene?
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat 25 Jun, 2011 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Historical grilles in helmets?         Reply with quote

Arek Przybylok wrote:
I have a problem what to think about this picture (helmet with "grill"):
Is it something real or just a passion scene?


I've read a lot of debate on the subject, none of it absolutely convincing. There are other grilled visors, however, such as the ones from Fiore and the ones in the painting I reference in this discussion:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=

And I have seen others, too, in at least one more source (although I don't have a copy of that one), so I think there's a good chance it's a legitimate practice, even if that specific example turns out to be something else.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

personally i think theres substantial logic, if not neccesarily evidence, thoughthere is at least, one extant example in the styrian armoury, the landeszeughaus.
the piece nmberis listed as part of a group called
" elements of a great garniture for field and tournament of Kaspar Baron vols-schenkenberg" consisting of partsfor the field armour, lighter field armour, armour fo the free tourney, and the tilt.

the light field armourconssts of a burgonet with a barred spiked visor.

as for the efficacy of a grilled visor, i see it as a great compromise between facial protection and the ability to still maintain a good field of view and get good oxygen flow when in more vigorous fighting, especially for footmen.
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The logic for me is not at all important. Only the source.
Kapsar lived in the sixteenth century, so it does not add anything.
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like someone has been thrown a fishbone to the head. Laughing Out Loud I don't see any connection of the grill with the helmet. Are you sure it's the artists intention that it's fastened to the helmet and no other item?
http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
Looks like someone has been thrown a fishbone to the head. Laughing Out Loud I don't see any connection of the grill with the helmet. Are you sure it's the artists intention that it's fastened to the helmet and no other item?


Some people have argued it's a feather or some other kind of decoration. To me, the shape indicates otherwise: the curve is precisely what you'd want to go over the face--we see plenty of solid visors with a very similar curve--and I've never seen a feather quite that spread out. That would mean the central rib is hinged at the top, just where it would meet the bascinet, just as plenty of Klappvisiers were. I'm not claiming it's definitive, but given the *clear* proof we have of later grilled visors, it seems likely enough.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen other grilles, too, which were used in tournaments with batons and cudgels, not swords. But they had a closed framework and were not shaped like this one. So this thing remains intriguing.
http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
I've seen other grilles, too, which were used in tournaments with batons and cudgels, not swords. But they had a closed framework and were not shaped like this one. So this thing remains intriguing.


The shape doesn't bother me, I've seen *lots* of grills made to almost this exact shape before anyone ever saw this painting because it just makes sense, but you're right about the fact that it's open being confusing. My take on this is that it's a very early form of grill and they didn't have all the bugs worked out yet. After all, this is the Transition, and lots of experimentation was going on. Alternatively, perhaps it wasn't supposed to be open around the edges and the artist simply messed up.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Johann M




Location: London
Joined: 23 Aug 2007

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From what I've seen "barred" visors certainly seem to have existed...but I would argue that their rarity in art suggests that they were far from commonplace.

http://www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landeskunde/rh...errh1e.htm

to the left of the bloke with ladder and straw helmet/hat are two individuals wearing helms with different styles of "barred" visors.
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