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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 9:27 am    Post subject: Jupon         Reply with quote

I've spent the last few months building myself a medieval kit, and the major item was a jupon. I was primarily interested in the ones being worn in Fiore's treatise, but I allowed myself to be influenced further by the Charles VI at Chartres and by construction details on a textile armour in Italy that I was sent by a friend on Facebook.

I need to note that the finished garment weighs more than 15 pounds and would stop most blows, I think. It is deerskin, with two layers of wool and two of heavy linen, and then the quilted channels are stuffed with raw wool. Stuffed really hard, I think I should add.







and finally, one of me wearing it. Sadly, it is dark...


Christian G. Cameron

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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh--and all hand sewn. As in, every stitch, everywhere. About 80 hours...
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Glennan Carnie




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

This is interesting. You've put the waistline of the garment at the hips. Do you have evidence for this, because all the similar garments I can think of have the waistline at the 'natural' waist - about level with the elbow. To me, this make sense as it's the point on the body where you actually bend.





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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

lol That's actually where mine is! Perhaps it shows badly, but the waist line is very high. I'm just very thin...
Christian G. Cameron

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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I misunderstood... I'm copying the lines of the garments in Fiore. The Italian waist in 1405 is much lower than the French style waist in 1360...

Yes, I know these garments. But that French style is very particular to a place and time--

Here are a few Fiore figures



and



show the smoother, more organic, and lower waist of Italy.

I'm doing 1390-1415. And I can bend at the waist just fine--the waist falls just where it fits inside my globose breastplate. It's also were MTA puts it , both on the pattern notes and on the art. I used "Medieval Tailor's Assistant" as my base guide in patterning.

Christian G. Cameron

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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Either I am blind or waist on Fiore pictures is also high, on elbow level if not higher. Take the very first picture for example. Measure distance from armpit to waist and then measure distance from armpit to elbow, the latter is obviously bigger, especially in case of the left (crownless) guy.
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

Congrats on finishing such an arduous project. Its a massive amount of work, having witnessed the construction of a "Hohenklingen" type jupon many years ago. That was also deerskin over multiple fabric layers, stuffed tubes. Cool looking, nasty brutal hot to wear as is doesn't breath at all. If fitted well, the arms act like bellows to pump air in and out at the nape of the neck but that's about all the relief available.

Secondly, everyone would agree with your assessment of the waist line if you took a daylight photo and didn't wear your belt so low in the photo. It is misleading. (took me a couple viewings to make out the difference in the photo)

Just out of curiosity though, what do you plan to wear it for? How does it work into your portrayal whatever that might be? It seems a very heavy garment to wear under armour.
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian G. Cameron wrote:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


No! You must change it to satisfy our whims! Get sewing, man. Surely it can't take that long!

(Hee hee. Only kidding. Of course. Big Grin )
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel--I'll wear it for sparring with longsword; and under mail and plate for heavy combat. Now, before you protest (as Peter Fuller did, and you're both right) that that's WAY too much protection, I'm going to celebrate my 50th birthday by fighting in a tourney that requires all three layers. I figure I'll fall over of exhaustion after I get up off my stool to fight, but what the heck. The surroundings will be beautiful.

I wore it for some hours on a hot summer evening and it wasn't bad--the bellows effect,a s you mentioned. Although I'm thinking of running some more grommets under the arms.

It is actually much lighter than a true "textile armour", I think. Anyway, I have to wear it a ton of times before I make any sweeping statements. And thanks for the point about the belt. I NOW notice, thanks to your comment,t hat all the belts in Fiore are at the high waist. Well...darn it, I want to be right all the time, and I never am!

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Gary B. Ledford




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

>Glennan, where did you get those gorgeous pictures, and where can I get more?
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian G. Cameron wrote:
Kel--I'll wear it for sparring with longsword; and under mail and plate for heavy combat. Now, before you protest (as Peter Fuller did, and you're both right) that that's WAY too much protection, I'm going to celebrate my 50th birthday by fighting in a tourney that requires all three layers. I figure I'll fall over of exhaustion after I get up off my stool to fight, but what the heck. The surroundings will be beautiful.

I wore it for some hours on a hot summer evening and it wasn't bad--the bellows effect,a s you mentioned. Although I'm thinking of running some more grommets under the arms.

It is actually much lighter than a true "textile armour", I think. Anyway, I have to wear it a ton of times before I make any sweeping statements. And thanks for the point about the belt. I NOW notice, thanks to your comment,t hat all the belts in Fiore are at the high waist. Well...darn it, I want to be right all the time, and I never am!


Have you tried to put your kit on over that coat? If so, could move freely? As spiffy as it looks, its too much material to wear under harness. You might handicap yourself, like being in a straight jacket.

BTW, where and when is this tournament?
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Moves pretty well. It's the haubergeon I dread. The jupon with my Milanese works beautifully, but the tournament requires Jupon, Haubergeon and a third layer. Sigh.


The tournament is http://www.laurin-tournament.com/. I can't go this year--2011--because I'm helping out with Marathon (490BC, my first love and profession, so to speak) but I plan to do Laurin next year. It is the authenticity of presentation that interests me--I'm a reenactor first.

But after Marathon is safely done, I'll come visit and seek your advice, Kel.

Christian G. Cameron

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow. That tournament looks great!

Christian, I would be very pleased to make your acquaintance and help you in any way I can with your medieval pursuits. You have my contacts.
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian G. Cameron wrote:
Moves pretty well. It's the haubergeon I dread. The jupon with my Milanese works beautifully, but the tournament requires Jupon, Haubergeon and a third layer. Sigh.


The tournament is http://www.laurin-tournament.com/. I can't go this year--2011--because I'm helping out with Marathon (490BC, my first love and profession, so to speak) but I plan to do Laurin next year. It is the authenticity of presentation that interests me--I'm a reenactor first.

But after Marathon is safely done, I'll come visit and seek your advice, Kel.


Wow - Christian that looks like a beautiful reconstruction of a c.1400 deed of arms.

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James Head





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PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fantastic work!!

Here's my only question. Isn't a jupon supposed to be worn over armor? I don't think of a jupon and gambeson as being the same thing. But maybe I'm misinformed.
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm relatively new to this period,m and I'm constantly wrong about terminology. Perhaps it isn't a jupon. But it will soon be besmottered by my haubergeon...

Just as a theory--perhaps one of those annoying new-guy theories--is it possible that arming coats with points only appeared when full mail haubergeons' declined? because before that, everything was pointed TO THE MAIL?

Just wondering.

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

I have wondered that as well. Or perhaps they laced through the mail? I think there is no real evidence either way so do what works best for you. I find it works fairly well so I for the most part do it.

That deed of arms was amazing! Good work to all involved.

RPM
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Christian,

I have wondered that as well. Or perhaps they laced through the mail? I think there is no real evidence either way so do what works best for you. I find it works fairly well so I for the most part do it.

That deed of arms was amazing! Good work to all involved.

RPM


Just a question about pointing to just the maille versus pointing to the arming clothes + though the maille when an aubergeon is used ? Would there be any difference in the shifting versus stability of the plate when the pointing is just through the maille ?

Is the maille with plate being more prone to shift position when the points are not going through both gambison and maille to attach the plate ( or whatever we want to call the arming clothes. Wink Razz ) ?

I tend to assume that well fitted plate pointed and, in some cases, also strapped over the maille and arming clothes would tend to minimize any shifting ?

Pointing though the maille instead of just to the maille would certainly be slower to do and I would guess that some sort of hook or tool would be useful or needed in fishing the points through the maille to be able to attach them to the plate ?

Pages or squires being even more essential to arm up if the points have to be pulled through the maille ! I just don't see how one could do this without help.

Some plate armour can be put on without help if the suspension of the plate is mostly relying on strapping in an emergency if help isn't available ?

A bit off topic but maille only armour or maille with limited plate coverage is mush more practical and fast to put on than plate in my opinion and still attractive as an option even in the era of plate for raids or chevauché where one might choose to not use full plate coverage.

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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With regard to pointing and maille haubergeons, I for a while was pointing directly to the maille, and I found this to be fatiguing and uncomfortable. Because (for me anyway) the maille is held in place only by how well it's fitted and a belt at the waist to take some of the weight off my shoulders, the sleeves of the haubergeon inevitably shift while moving around. This in turn means that everything pointed to it (presumably some sort of spaulder and arm protection) shifts along with the maille, kind of defeating the whole purpose of what you're trying to accomplish.

The arming garment below the maille doesn't shift around on my arms, and keeps the plate defenses where I want them, preventing things like elbow cops from moving just enough to prevent your arm from bending properly a la pointing to shifty maille instead. While a pain in the butt, pointing through the maille to the haubergeon feels like the way to go.

Another benefit is proper weight distribution. When pointing to maille, you're in essence just making your haubergeon heavier. When pointing through the maille to the gambeson, your well fitted garment is distributing the weight of the plate better, thus reducing fatigue.

Of course, this can all be avoided by going Italian style late 14th c, and wearing only maille as shoulder defense, pointing your arms to the gambeson, and letting the sleeves of your haubergeon fall over the outside of your upper cannons.

None of what I've said is backed up by anything I can cite as historical. This is purely from a perspective based on practical wearing of the armor and trial and error.

By the way, the Laurin Tournament looks spectacular. Their kits are amazing! Looking through their photos was very inspirational for someone trying to perfect the late 14th c kit.

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