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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: vervelles or not vervelles, that's the question         Reply with quote

Hi.
To improve my mid XIVth. cen. harness, I was looking for a godd combat helm, and not the usual grat helm, but this time I'll go definitely for a visored bascinet.
I found this very well looking reporduction from armory marek (h 33, the first one) that looks very similar to this kind here rapresented.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/164/
For what I've seen, there are no vervelles and the knights use a camail.
But here comes the problem: there is another miniature where there is a similar helm http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance-of-al...y-264/44/, in where I assume that the tiny white dots rapresents the vervelles.
So, the reproduction by marek should or shouldn't go with vervelles?
Thank's fot the attention.

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.


Last edited by Augusto Boer Bront on Tue 14 Jun, 2011 1:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my option its a where and when question. By that I mean that the armour in Romance of Alexander is later in the evolutionary path of 14 century armour. Notice the extensive use of plate limb defenses on everybody where in the Holkham bible it much rarer, really only seen on people wearing crowns. I don't think these two source show the same "evolutionary snap shot".

So, do you want to look like someone from the Holkham bible, lots of maile or do you want look like someone from Romance of Alexander with nice limb defense?

Here are some more images of vervelles in Romance of Alexander



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roa_vervelles.jpg


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roa_vervelles_2.jpg


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roa_vervelles_3.jpg

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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not think that most of the images show vervelles but show sewn in liners or something. Clearly there are some instances that likely do but I think it looks to be the less common method around that time.

Keep in mind that picture from the Holkham shows Bannockburn which took place in 1314, so might not be up to date for 1320s.

RPM
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, that's my kit (sorry for the small pics, but these are the only two I have)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/74775924.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/io2h.jpg/

The fact is that I want to use early plate gauntlets (and here it comes marek again) like the g15 http://www.armorymarek.com/gauntlets and tight splinted defences.
So you say that I could use both, camail or aventail, dependig only on how late my persona would be?

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to admit that cherry picked images from Romance of Alexander that showed what could be vervelles because Augusto's initial post mentioned vervelles and I did not think I would find them in the Romance.

Personally I think that the image Augusto originally posted shows what Randall suggests, a sewn liner of some kind.

mackenzie
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could wear a padded coif, mail coif and your sugar loaf and I'd see nothing incorrect about it with or without those gauntlets.... which I think work very well for the period.

The move from mail coif to aventail is a hard one. I have figured until 1330s-1340 it was not done much if at all and you have to figure the transition would be increasing during the decades till the late 1350s you see a fair amount of artwork that likely shows them. It is really is a hard one.

And then of course if you have an aventail they can be sewn in so vervelles are still not required and are likely later additions. The Luttrel Psalter of the man himself seems to show an aventail on a bascinet but to my eyes they look like it is sewn in.

RPM
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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Then I'll go for the camail. The sewn aventail seems a work too hard to do and I have no idea how to do it.
Thanks for the advice and the petience Big Grin Big Grin .

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
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