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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Sword Carrying Picture         Reply with quote

Hello,

Some time ago, someone on here posted a 16th-century German (I think) picture of men carrying their longswords in their left arms, they way a hunter sometimes carries a rifle--it was some kind of military thing, or a parade, something like that. I tried searchng for it, but, unfortunately could not find it. Does anyone know where I can find that picture? If so, I would be very grateful to see it. Thank you.

Regards,
Hugh
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a fairly typical carriage, with one of the qullions resting in the crook of the arm. It can be easy to overlook because, at a glance, it appears to be worn at the waist. Look carefully at this image and you'll see the typical carry arrangement of belt wound around the scabbard and buckle hanging down (often secured by the wrapped belt). There are MANY images of such "off-duty" swords grounded in front of a standing figure, carried resting in the hand and forearm or carried as below.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here is one picture... there is another with the sword barely seen in the corner under his arm... usually labled Kunz von den Rosen.


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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
It's a fairly typical carriage, with one of the qullions resting in the crook of the arm. It can be easy to overlook because, at a glance, it appears to be worn at the waist. Look carefully at this image and you'll see the typical carry arrangement of belt wound around the scabbard and buckle hanging down (often secured by the wrapped belt). There are MANY images of such "off-duty" swords grounded in front of a standing figure, carried resting in the hand and forearm or carried as below.


That's an interesting one, Sean, but not the one I'm looking for.

The one I'm looking for has the hilt of the sword in the holder's left hand, with the blade running up his left arm to his left shoulder. Again, it's like many hunters carry a rifle. The picture is a block print.

Regards,
Hugh
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
here is one picture... there is another with the sword barely seen in the corner under his arm... usually labled Kunz von den Rosen.


That ones very interesting, too! But in the one I was looking for the blade is over the left arm, not under it. And the picture showed multiple men marching or walking together, as in a parage or something.

thank you!

Regards,
Hugh
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're probably thinking of the Triumph of Maximillian. This is common carriage for two-hand swords in this period. I don't think I've seen longswords carried point-up.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Men marching? then its probably from one of the Triumph of Maximilian woodcuts... Hans Burgkmair, Albrecht Durrer, or Altdorfer.
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you thinking of this one with the upturned halberd?

http://www.art-wallpaper.com/21720/Schoen+Erh...-21720.jpg

or this guy
http://www.art-wallpaper.com/22852/St%C3%B6r+...-22852.jpg
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean and Christopher,

No, none of them. I'm glad I asked the question, however, because some of the ones you've posted are ones I hadn't seen before.

In the picture I'm looking for, the men are wearing round-brimmed hats, and they're marching together. They have their swords cradled in their left arms, with the hilt in the left hand and the point of the sword going up past the shoulder. They aren't carrying them on the shoulder as in the Triumph of Max, but rather cradled in the left arm as you might carry a rifle. And it's not one of the other Max ones, I'm pretty familiar with those and this pictures is completely different.

I sincerely thank you for posting these however, they are very interesting, especially the first one from you, Sean, and the one under the left arm, Christopher.

Regards,
Hugh
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh,

I think I recall such a picture once but I can't say where it is...

However, that's not why I'm posting. I was wondering why you're interested in that picture specifically. You have a very detailed description, so I would assume that you have a specific purpose. ?

Eric Gregersen
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Gregersen wrote:
Hugh,

I think I recall such a picture once but I can't say where it is...

However, that's not why I'm posting. I was wondering why you're interested in that picture specifically. You have a very detailed description, so I would assume that you have a specific purpose. ?


I have developed a set of formal exercises (structured partner drills) for longsword practice in my school. I like a little formality in this sort of thing, and so I want a documentable way of carrying a sword when coming into the "lists" for a demonstration, and I liked the way I saw them carrying their swords in that picture. On the other hand, I may be misremembering the picture, or I may find, when I examine it, that what they're doing is completely innappropriate or something, so I want to have documentation in my hand before I institute the practice in training. Carrying a sword up over the shoulder, as in the Maximilian plates, may be another fallback position, but I just happened to like this one, especially as it put the sword in the left hand.

Regards,
Hugh
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahhhh...I get it now. I'm pretty sure some of the Talhoffer illustrations show combatants carrying their swords into the list. I'll check that.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In this image, the combatant enters the list with sword in scabbard. Other images from the same edition show men fighting while wearing scabbards and while not wearing scabbards. The image of the combatant preparing to receive a javelin shows a typical way of holding the longsword at the ready, usually while throwing a javelin but in this case preparing to throw a dagger. I would think that this one is as close as you'll get to an historically justified bare sword carriage for the specific context of the list.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
In this image, the combatant enters the list with sword in scabbard. Other images from the same edition show men fighting while wearing scabbards and while not wearing scabbards. The image of the combatant preparing to receive a javelin shows a typical way of holding the longsword at the ready, usually while throwing a javelin but in this case preparing to throw a dagger. I would think that this one is as close as you'll get to an historically justified bare sword carriage for the specific context of the list.


Hi Sean,

Thanks, I know the Talhoffer shots. In fact, there's one in Talhoffer 1443 where he's being led into the lists like this and his Fechtmeister (one presumes) is carrying the sword just like I talked about. There's also one in Talhoffer 1467 that shows Talhoffer himself holding a sword this way. So I'm probably being overly anal about the whole thing, but in none of them were the actual users carrying their own swords that way (rather than just posing with them, I mean). Still, that's really good enough--I'm going to leave well enough alone and just rely on Talhoffer for documentation.

Thanks for all the input, folks--I got to see some interesting pictures.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org


Last edited by Hugh Knight on Fri 10 Jun, 2011 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though it isn't the image you want, have a look at the image from 'Memorial of the Practice of the Montante' on the site of the Oakeshott Institute on Arms and Armor site. He isn't wearing a hat and a longsword, just imagine that and let him hold the pommel in his left hand, in that way he'll cradle it in his arm.


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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick De Block wrote:
Though it isn't the image you want, have a look at the image from 'Memorial of the Practice of the Montante' on the site of the Oakeshott Institute on Arms and Armor site. He isn't wearing a hat and a longsword, just imagine that and let him hold the pommel in his left hand, in that way he'll cradle it in his arm.


Another good one, thanks Patrick!

Regards,
Hugh
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So something like what this Griffin is doing for these Freifechter...


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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
So something like what this Griffin is doing for these Freifechter...


Oh, that is so cool; where did you get that picture, Christopher? Do you know anything else about it?

Thanks!

Actually, a closer image is this one:



That's really my start point, I just wanted documentation to support using that position as a way of carrying the sword while walking. I know this probably sounds silly, but I didn't want someone saying that the picture justified a standing hold but not one used in the carry, but I've had that kind of nit picking before.

Regards,
Hugh
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW, this is the way I carry a sharp from my shop to my library. It's the safest way to carry a bare blade, in my view. Has to be point-up to avoid pets and kids, and resting against the downward extended arm and shoulder prevents damage to walls, fixtures, etc.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
FWIW, this is the way I carry a sharp from my shop to my library. It's the safest way to carry a bare blade, in my view. Has to be point-up to avoid pets and kids, and resting against the downward extended arm and shoulder prevents damage to walls, fixtures, etc.


I agree, and I think the simple common sense of it is what caught my eye first. The over-the-shoulder carry seen in other sources can be scary; turn sharply to look at something and you can cut your buddy's head off.

Regards,
Hugh
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