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Davy Van Elst




Location: Belgium
Joined: 17 Aug 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Good sparring sword, experiences needed.         Reply with quote

Hi,
I'm currently in the market for a good and safe sparring longsword. With this I mean a sword that has enough flexibility to allow a safe trust (if you have the propper protection of a gambesson and fencing helmet) but that doesn't flex too much so that I can still use all the longsword techniques like the 'fühlen' and stuff like that. The swords that at the moment carry my
intrest are:
Ensifer federschwerter: http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/
The Howe of Pavel Moc: http://www.swords.cz/enbestof.html

Does anyone here have any experience with one of these swords?
Are there any equivalent suggestions?

With kind regards,
Davy
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Good sparring sword, experiences needed.         Reply with quote

I strongly suggest getting the "Liechtenauer" blunt from Albion ($490). Learn to control your trusts and your strikes and learn to not hack your edges you won't even need an gambesson.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Sean Hendriks





Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pavel Moc swords handle very well, I haven't tried that particular model but have used some of the others. The people I've spoken to who own one are happy with their swords.

I recently purchased a blunt from Jindřich Figura and am very happy with it. The blade is resilient even with full speed drills, and while the sword is not as flashy as those from other makers, I feel it (to steal a line from Oakeshott) shows beauty of form, not ornamentation. The design also mirrors an historical sword, which is a big plus.
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 3:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I own a Pavel Moc Talhoffer and I have handled a Howe. I should point out that the Howe is completely different from any other Pavel Moc blades. Other Pavel Mocs are essentially unsharpened swords. They are as stiff as a real sword. The Howe, being a tournament blade, is much more flexible. Unfortunately that makes comments like Sean's above not really useful.

I'll refrain from commenting on the Howe myself. I just don't like whippy blades at all.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl


Last edited by Sander Marechal on Sun 05 Jun, 2011 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Good sparring sword, experiences needed.         Reply with quote

Davy Van Elst wrote:
Hi,

With this I mean a sword that has enough flexibility to allow a safe trust (if you have the propper protection of a gambesson and fencing helmet) but that doesn't flex too much so that I can still use all the longsword techniques like the 'fühlen' and stuff like that.


I tend to think that no one training sword can be equally good doing both thrusts with some vigour and be rigid enough to be good at the sword techniques.


An Albion Liechtenauer is probably the best choice but one must use control as a full power thrust could be dangerous or at least painful. I personally think that protective equipment only make controlled fencing safe enough but no safety equipment will keep you safe if you train as if you where really fighting.

One can hit safely if one does it with good physical and emotional control and hits are felt and pulled and not pushed though as if you wanted the blade to go deep inside your opponent !

One can go the other way and use a Federschwert but then one must compromise with their excessive flexibility on the flats although if one keeps their edged aligned one can still use a great deal of pressure in the bind.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been playing with 2 different Pavel Mocs for almost a month now and allthough well balanced I feel they are not "real" in handling. My main sword is a Del Tin DT5140 http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Half+Sword and it is in comparison to the Moc's a bit more blade heavy but still more comfortable as it is not as floppy and soft as the Moc's.
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Davy Van Elst




Location: Belgium
Joined: 17 Aug 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2011 1:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong, I'm not into beating my fellow swordsman up. I'm looking for a good balance between a sword that is safe enough for a controlled trust and still gives me a good feel when I'm in a bind with my opponent. My experience with trusts however is that not much force is required to give serious injuries, especially when you step in on the other ones attack because you get combined powers in that. Of course I know that no sword is 100% safe and that proper protection will still be needed, even with a safer sword.

Anyway, I really appreciate your comments Happy
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Posts: 244

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2011 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean is right. There is no one training sword (that I have know of) that can both take a beating from full contact sparring and is safe for thrusting. I haven't had any expierience with the European trainers, but the best compromise I have found between durability and thrust safety is probably the Albion Meyer. Compared to the Liechtenauer, the Meyer is almost as durable but has a little more flex when thrusting. The swords that are safe for thrusting tend to break too easy ala the Hanwei Federschwert. At a $130 per break, I would rather get a more durable sword (Albion) and practice safety when thrusting.

Regarding the Hanwei Federschwert: In spite of some people's experience of successfully getting replacement swords for broken ones from Hanwei, I have had no such luck. The dealer I bought it from is out of business and according to him Hanwei provides no recourse for refund or replacement in my case. As fun as their federschwerts are to spar with I afraid that Hanwei has gotten the last of my funds. Sad

Edit: Disregard my last statement. Hanwei stands by its product and has made things right Big Grin

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."


Last edited by Allen Foster on Fri 10 Jun, 2011 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Allen Foster: Try contacting Hanwei directly. They may be able to help you anyway.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 244

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
@Allen Foster: Try contacting Hanwei directly. They may be able to help you anyway.


Sander,

I have to thank you for providing me such good advise. Eventhough my dealer has gone out of business and I no longer have the packing receipt, Hanwei has agreed to replace both of my broken trainers due to the special circumstances.

Only in an industry/community like ours, does customer service like this still exist. Big Grin I would especially like to thank Star Hensley of CAS Iberia / Hanwei who helped make it happen.

This is good news for our group because the Hanwei Federschwert happens to be the safest trainer on the market for thrusting and working from the bind. With it we learn a lot of aspects of the craft that we wouldn't learn otherwise with less forgiving trainers.

Yea!

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jun, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm glad it all ended well!
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jun, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good to hear that, Allen, since I recently recommended two hanwei trainers to my sparring class.

Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Alen L




Location: Ljubljana, SLovenia
Joined: 20 May 2010

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jun, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ensifer feders are pretty nice (if you have a "full sword", take the lighter version, if not the heavier), and I would also recommend the Peter Regenyei federschwert.

http://www.regenyei.sg18.net/en/en_index.htm

I'm not sure they're on his website yet, But I have handled a few of his feders brifely, all of which were superb. As far as I know, he's just made some extra improvements, so they should be better still. Keep in mind that they are pretty minimalistic (at least the basic model) - the handle is made of bare wood. They are, however (possibly also because they are minimalistic) pretty cheap. I'd recommend you contact him. Happy

Also, the Howe is a good sword - handles great, very lively and responsive - but quite expensive.

EDIT:

There are some pictures of said feders on this forum:

http://www.ghfs.se/Forum/tabid/83/forumid/1/p...fault.aspx
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2011 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen a Howe fail. Twice. Once a piece of the blade hit a bystander, luckily not resulting in bodily harm (phew).
It wasn't mine so I'm not sure what caused it, but I figured I'd share it anyway.

I've never seen other Moc blades break, while my school used a lot of them (mostly Talhoffers).

That said, there are no 'safe' steel sparring swords.
Control is the 'safety'.
You'll never be able to go all-out with steel like when using shinais.
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William Carew




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Jun, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Good sparring sword, experiences needed.         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
I strongly suggest getting the "Liechtenauer" blunt from Albion ($490). Learn to control your trusts and your strikes and learn to not hack your edges you won't even need an gambesson.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


I strongly suggest safety should involve layers of redundancy, both active and passive. While learning to control your thrusts and strikes is obviously important (i.e. 'active' safety), wearing effective and appropriate PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) and using safe fencing simulators is important for 'passive' safety in case the unexpected happens.

No-one has perfect control and accidents do happen, so when active safety ('control') fails, it's nice to have adequate passive safety (PPE) to prevent or lessen the severity of injury. Clothing such as padded jacks, doublets or the like were very commonly worn by fencers in period, even for blossfechten (unarmoured fighting) - they didn't free fence in flimsy cotton t-shirts, and we needn't do so either.

EMMV.

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Davy Van Elst




Location: Belgium
Joined: 17 Aug 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 3:31 am    Post subject: Not the Pavel Moc Howe         Reply with quote

I've been fighting in the sword fighting tournament at the castle of Doornenburg last weekend and one of the participants used a Pavel Moc - Howe. When I looked at his sword during the fights then the Howe was a real disappointment, it is way to whippy (it must be said that the guy had a fast style, which accentuates this) and what disappointed me the most that after a few strikes, the blade wasn't straight anymore, it had a strong curve to one side. After seeing this I made my choice and decided to buy one of the heavy feders of Ensifer since this is highly recommended by many sportly sword fighting groups.
The only thing that I still need to do is to convince the wife Big Grin

Being said that, I want to tank everybody for their contribution to this discussion and assure you guys that I'm fully aware of the fact that a flexible blade isn't the full solution for safety in sparring but that you also need the propper safety equipment and a good state of mind so that you can control your actions.

Thank you guys for the help,
Davy Van Elst
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F. Carl Holz




Location: someplace out on the water (and probably not able to access my PM)
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

whats the price point on one of those (Ensifer)?
31. And there are some whom everyone should consider to be wise...
-Le Livre de Chevalerie, Geffroi Charny-
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Davy Van Elst




Location: Belgium
Joined: 17 Aug 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Prices of Ensifer         Reply with quote

The ensifer swords aren't that expensive (certainly less expensive then Albion or Pavel Moc). I think that it is best that you contact him to get an updated price, he can be contacted on ensifer@wp.pl.
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just had my long awaited Albion Liechtenauer delivered last night and this might be the new sword in box smell blurring my mind but I never want another sword for sparring. Oh, and the small bottle of Ballistol is a complimentary drink right?
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