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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Translation Help         Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm hoping someone on here can help me with a translation to let me know if I have it correct. This text comes from folio 15v of the Glasgow Fechtbuch:

"So vinst du an im schie▀ die plos"

Which I translate as:

"Thus you gain the opening at which to shoot [thrust]."

The original transcription I used suggested that the word "schie▀" was actually "schier," however, when I look at the actual MS I think that's a bit of scribal sloppiness because schie▀ makes more sense contextually to me. The original plate can be seen here:
http://www.marylandkdf.com/wiki/File:E.1939.65.341_15v.jpg

Thank you for your help.

Regards,
Hugh
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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty certain that the transcription you're using is correct. Grammatically, I don't see how schie▀ could make sense here. In order for the sentence to function in the way you suggest, it would require an infinitive (schie▀en or schiezen) at the end of a relative clause. This can't be a relative clause because im (a dative masculine pronoun and not a relative pronoun) cannot refer to die plos (a feminine accusative)
In Middle High German, schier, when used as an adverb, means "quickly" or "at once," which I think fits here.
I would therefore suggest the translation "Thus, you quickly find the uncovered [place] on him."

Hope this helps!
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
I'm pretty certain that the transcription you're using is correct. Grammatically, I don't see how schie▀ could make sense here. In order for the sentence to function in the way you suggest, it would require an infinitive (schie▀en or schiezen) at the end of a relative clause. This can't be a relative clause because im (a dative masculine pronoun and not a relative pronoun) cannot refer to die plos (a feminine accusative)
In Middle High German, schier, when used as an adverb, means "quickly" or "at once," which I think fits here.
I would therefore suggest the translation "Thus, you quickly find the uncovered [place] on him."

Hope this helps!


Thank you very much, this helps a lot. I've done a lot of "seat of the pants" translation, but grammatical nuances like this can really throw me still.

Why did you use "find" for "vinst" instead of "gain"? Is my glossary at fault? Also, why use "uncovered (place)" instead of "opening"?

Regards,
Hugh
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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2011 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Why did you use "find" for "vinst" instead of "gain"? Is my glossary at fault? Also, why use "uncovered (place)" instead of "opening"?


I read vinst as a contracted form of vindest (from vinden, to find or perceive). Such shortening occurs sometimes in Middle High German with unaccented vowels. Here's an explanation from Joseph Wright's primer:

"The e, when not preceded by a nasal, was sometimes dropped in verbal forms ending in t. This was especially the case in wirst, wirt older wirdes(t), wirdet; siht, he sees, sŰht, ye see, older sihet, sŰhet; and often in forms like gilt, vint, spricht, sticht beside giltet, vindet, sprichet, stichet."

(Joseph Wright, A Middle High German Primer with Grammar, Notes, and Glossary, 3rd. ed. Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1917), p. 10.

I translated "uncovered (place)" because I usually see pl˘s [=bl˘z] as simply an adjective meaning "naked" - here it's clearly being used as a substantive.

I didn't mean to steer you away from using either "gain" or "opening" - in context these may be entirely appropriate or even more accurate translations. It may also be the case that these terms are used consistently within the manuscript (with which I have no prior experience) in the sense that your glossary has translated them.

In any case, good luck with your translation!
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2011 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C.L. Miller wrote:
Hugh Knight wrote:
Why did you use "find" for "vinst" instead of "gain"? Is my glossary at fault? Also, why use "uncovered (place)" instead of "opening"?


I read vinst as a contracted form of vindest (from vinden, to find or perceive). Such shortening occurs sometimes in Middle High German with unaccented vowels. Here's an explanation from Joseph Wright's primer:

"The e, when not preceded by a nasal, was sometimes dropped in verbal forms ending in t. This was especially the case in wirst, wirt older wirdes(t), wirdet; siht, he sees, sŰht, ye see, older sihet, sŰhet; and often in forms like gilt, vint, spricht, sticht beside giltet, vindet, sprichet, stichet."

(Joseph Wright, A Middle High German Primer with Grammar, Notes, and Glossary, 3rd. ed. Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1917), p. 10.

I translated "uncovered (place)" because I usually see pl˘s [=bl˘z] as simply an adjective meaning "naked" - here it's clearly being used as a substantive.

I didn't mean to steer you away from using either "gain" or "opening" - in context these may be entirely appropriate or even more accurate translations. It may also be the case that these terms are used consistently within the manuscript (with which I have no prior experience) in the sense that your glossary has translated them.

In any case, good luck with your translation!


Excellent, I understand. Again, thank you very much for taking the time to help, I truly appreciate it.

Regards,
Hugh
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh, do you happen to have the rest of the sentence transcribed (preceding and following the passage in question)?
I ask this because there could be a meaning possibly akin to so you win the _ _ _ _ whilst in the shooting stance. No idea as of yet what a plos or possibly ploes is, that is why the rest of the passage might help in determining an inference...
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
Hugh, do you happen to have the rest of the sentence transcribed (preceding and following the passage in question)?
I ask this because there could be a meaning possibly akin to so you win the _ _ _ _ whilst in the shooting stance. No idea as of yet what a plos is, that is why the rest of the passage might help in determining an inference...


I have the rest of the text:
"So la▀ das ort vndter seine~ schwert durch wischen vnd stich im da mit ser ein zu der ander˝ seitten"

I have a translation for that text--it refers to moving your sword under your opponent's blade with a Durchwechseln and thrusting on the other side--standard Durchwechseln description. The only reason I questioned the snippet I did was because we weren't sure if it changed the meaning of that part, and the "vinst" and "schier" were giving us difficulty. CL Miller's explanation put that completely to rest, however; the rest makes perfect sense. I now render it as: "Thus, you quickly find [gain] the opening on him." (I confess I'm still researching to see if the word "gain" or "find" is better here, but this isn't a significant issue.)

As for "plos," that refers to "blo▀"--you often find the P substituted for the B in these books. It refers to an opening in your opponent's defense--a spot to hit, in other words. That part was never in doubt.

Regards,
Hugh
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh, I'm going to give this translation thingy a shot here for the fun of it, hope you don't mind...

Quote:
So la▀ das ort vndter seine~ schwert durch wischen vnd stich im da mit ser ein zu der ander˝ seitten

In modern German: So lass das Ort unter seinem Schwert durchwischen, und stech Ihm damit sehr eins zur anderen seite.

In old-sounding English: ... so let the place under his sword be slipped through, and stab him thoroughly one to the other side.

Does that sound about right to you? It seems their original handwriting style and old dialect make things fairly tough for me to sort out, I can only imagine what effort you put into such a project.
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Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 687

PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

The word here is 'schier'; Glasgow uses the same gloss as in the Ringeck Fechtbuch, where it's rendered the same way.

So, it's more or less "thus you quickly find him exposed", which is the whole idea of the technique: he tries to bind you up, you circumvent his sword by dropping beneath it and hit him where he's unprotected on the other side of his weapon.

The longsword section of the Glasgow Fechtbuch is just an illustrated Ringeck (alas, missing the first section of techniques), with some text added to say things like "...as you see painted above".

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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