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Bram van Diemen




Location: Tilburg
Joined: 26 Oct 2010

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Langmesser         Reply with quote

A question. I'm looking for a side arm for my burgundian archer. I'm looking for a short bladed sword, somewhere in the falcion or langmesser kind. How common would langmessers be outside the holy empire?
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Matthijs Witsenburg




Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jan 2011

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What exact period are you portraying? Charles the Bold, in his ordonnance of 1471 (?) recommends a hand and a halfsword as a sidearm for archers. I'm not certain how strict these rules were.

Part of Burgundy was originally part of he holy roman empire, as can be seen here. I don't think that the inhabitants of those parts of Burgundy would immediately abandon any and all germanic influences.
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Bram van Diemen




Location: Tilburg
Joined: 26 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I portray an archer around 1465-ish. And I have a hand and a halfsword. But would like to be able to also carry a short sword along with a buckler Marc van Hasselt forged many many years ago.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "lang" in "Langmesser" means "long." Since you're looking for shorter weapons, wouldn't it just be a "messer?" Happy
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
The "lang" in "Langmesser" means "long." Since you're looking for shorter weapons, wouldn't it just be a "messer?" Happy


Maybe, maybe not. The weapons depicted in period fencing manuscripts, such as the ones that Albion's messers are based off of, are often called "long knives". So if he's looking for something that is "short sword" in length, the terminology isn't out of the question.

As for the original question, I've seen little evidence of what we would call a "messer" outside of the Germanic regions. Falchions and knives that have similar blades, yes, but the iconic slab-hilted, single edged weapon? Not that I'm aware of.

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Matthijs Witsenburg




Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jan 2011

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
As for the original question, I've seen little evidence of what we would call a "messer" outside of the Germanic regions.


As can be seen in the map linked to in my earlier post, the holy roman empire extended much further west than modern Germany and a large part of Burgundy at the end of the reign of Philip the Good fell within the borders of the empire. While the Valois dukes were French in origin, much Burgundy wasn't.
I don't think that, for instance in Holland or Guelders, there would be no Germanic influence on material culture, just because they were under Burgundian rule.

That being said, I don't know how widespread the use of langmesser was within the empire. It would probably be incorrect to assume that they were uniformly prevalent throughout the empire.
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A. Heidalen Skog




Location: Norway
Joined: 07 Oct 2010

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 2:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, to my (limited) knowledge, langmessers were used in, and around the Reich.

Germanic is a language group btw. (Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, German, Dutch, English etc.)
I am very interested in Germanic tribes and culture, especially the Norse. Pardon the off-topic bit -_-
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Fabrice Cognot
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Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun 10 Apr, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Messers would have been called "Braquemards" or "braquemarts" in French - don't stay too focused on a specific spelling, there was no such thing as rules for this at the time.

Though later (or also at these times) 'braquemard' woudl also have another meaning. More...manly, and genital in nature.


But the use of long knives, sometimes wiht a Rüstnagel, is indeed documentend in the French and Burgundian realms.


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