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Stephen Renico




Location: Detroit
Joined: 01 Feb 2009

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Latin Translation, Please?         Reply with quote

Would the best way to translate "You are at war" be "Vos es in bellum"?

Many thanks in advance.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
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Norbert Keller




Location: Hungary
Joined: 23 Apr 2009

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there!

By "you are at war" do you mean singular or plural?

Not 100 %, but:
singular/2 >>tu es = you are
plural/ 2 >> vos estis = you (you+he+they, etc)
in / at something >> in + abl
bellum word in ablativus>> bello (I don't have the correct character on my keyboard, but that o letter has a - mark on its top (cuz it's a long letter).

if singular it should be:

Tu es in bello.

If you mean plural:

Vos estis in bello.
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Andrew W




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 14 Oct 2010

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The verb bellare means 'to wage war,' so 'you are waging war' / 'you are at war' would be:

(tu) bellas = singular
(vos) bellatis = plural

You don't need the tu / vos (the ending on the verb includes the 'you' already), but you can include them for emphasis.
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Stephen Renico




Location: Detroit
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Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, gentlemen.

I was looking for the singular "you". I'm making an inscription on something, and this will do nicely.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Simply "bellas" would be appropriate. You could add "Tu" before it to make it more formal, but because it is already in the second person, the "you" is implied. adding "tu" would not be redundant so much as giving it emphasis.
Also, adding the long dash over the "o" to denote ablative is used as a guide for people learning Latin because it is pronounced differently (long), but it is not generally written that way on inscriptions and formal writing.
Also, Latin is a nice language in that word order is not critical to grammar. However, proper etiquette is to place the verb at the end, so if you want to go with the larger phrase the most appropriate way to write it would be (Tu) in bello es.
I just completed my Latin Minor at my university, so while I am not an absolute expert, this information is also still fresh on my mind.
Good luck,
Quinn

"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Norbert Keller




Location: Hungary
Joined: 23 Apr 2009

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PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I learnt latin in secondary school, and 4 years have passed since I opened the grammar book Big Grin Seems I already forgot how to spell things in that.
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Robert A





Joined: 23 Mar 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd translate it in the passive tense, particularly if you mean it as a threat, the way I think you do.

"You are being made war upon" = "BELLARIS" (1st conjugation, 2nd person singular, present, passive)

This way, you get the bonus meaning of: "If you can read this, then I'm going to kill you."
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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a good call on passive voice. I know it sounds a little awkward in the translation, but passive voice in Latin is not "weak language" as it is often considered in English.
"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Andrew W




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 14 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis and Short says that bellor is a deponent verb, meaning that in this case the active and passive voices would mean the same thing.

For the non-Latinists reading this, that means that bellas and bellaris are two ways of writing the same thing. Both communicate the idea of waging war (actively).
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Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I mostly do Greek (Latin was 25 years ago), but isn't it elegant Latin style as well to minimize the word count?
Christian G. Cameron

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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew W wrote:
Lewis and Short says that bellor is a deponent verb, meaning that in this case the active and passive voices would mean the same thing.

For the non-Latinists reading this, that means that bellas and bellaris are two ways of writing the same thing. Both communicate the idea of waging war (actively).

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware of that, but I trust you and L&S. So do you think it would be inappropriate to use the passive or that it's simply a matter of taste and is otherwise irrelevant?

Christian G. Cameron wrote:
I mostly do Greek (Latin was 25 years ago), but isn't it elegant Latin style as well to minimize the word count?

As far as I have ever learned, this is completely true. In that language, elegance is to be concise.

"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Andrew W




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 14 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know what would be more appropriate for medieval Latin - L&S says that the deponent form is rare, but that's referring to classical Latin.

Of course - if we're talking about a medieval sword, odds are good that the craftsman didn't know that bellaris is deponent. He could probably invent a passive without anyone upsetting anyone.
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
Joined: 02 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know what would be more appropriate for medieval Latin - L&S says that the deponent form is rare, but that's referring to classical Latin.

Of course - if we're talking about a medieval sword, odds are good that the craftsman didn't know that bellaris is deponent. He could probably invent a passive without anyone upsetting anyone.


In my (admittedly not so huge) experience of medieval Latin, complex or "subtle" forms are rare and grammatical construction tends to reflect the influence of the "vulgar", more commonly-used languages. I would say that in this case it is more probable that a full sentence made up of rather simple words/forms would be used (such as "Tu es in bello"). Such a sentence is very close to what it would be today in latin languages such as French, Spanish, Italian etc., which is often the case with medieval latin. In medieval times, for brievity's sake (and to save on parchment), this sentence "real estate" could be reduced by the use of abbreviations, something medieval latin is often full of.

There are of course exceptions so a more complex and "subtle" form such as "bellaris" is certainly not entirely impossible. There still were "classical latin geeks" in the middle ages; for instance Saxo Grammaticus, 12th century Dane and author of the Gesta Danorum, was as his name indicates a grammarian, and apparently relished in using complex and (by his time) outdated forms.
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