Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Revolutionary War Hanger (or Cutte) ??? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Revolutionary War Hanger (or Cutte) ???         Reply with quote

Any info &/or comments on this Sword ??

http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2375

I do "historical research/presentations on the Fur Trade in the PNW (1800s-1850s ) An clerk or above with NWC & HBC carried swords.& they used them.

The choice of sword was left up to the person,so they varied. ( many were sabers,but "basket hilts ++ were carried.

Although, the types often are not mentioned, they are several references to "hunters,hangers & cutlass' (Cutlass' were very avail, as they were part of the "posts gen. armory,carried on the HBC ships & were a "trade item"

I am putting together a display & presentation on the arms carried by these men, ( for an up coming series of events.)

To me this would work to represent a common type carried & used. ????

Jack
View user's profile Send private message
Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
Joined: 23 Oct 2003

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out this topic:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19009

..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
View user's profile Send private message
GG Osborne





Joined: 21 Mar 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack...for what it's worth, I think a revolutionary era sword wouldn't be appropriate for the period you mention. In contemporary terms, it would mean taking a weapon 25-75 years old and reusing it for daily service. Sure this does happen, witness the 1911 auto, but there are copies of a venerable weapon not weapons used in WWI. I would think your represenhtation would be better perved from something in the 1820s of so. A N.Starr saber, an eagle-headed spadroon or saber would be better IMHO. You might check our the Military Heritage site as they have a nice selection of swords from the period. Good luck!
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher Gregg




Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 661

PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Rev War hanger I handled was way too blade heavy - it was thick and not too quick, considering its length. I have not handled the cutlass, but I agree it must have a bit better balance, due to the weight of the hilt.

I also have handled the Windlass rev war hanger - it has much better handling dynamics, but I think the guard is ridiculous! It looks nothing like a real 18th century hanger hilt. Check out the swords on olddominionforge.com to see replicas that are right.

If I were to wear one of these as a costume piece, I'd go for the Hanwei sword - but if I were to fight, I'd want the Windlass, and get it sharpened, of course.

Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
View user's profile Send private message
Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
Joined: 23 Oct 2003

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I recall the Hanwei is not sharpened. I wonder if sharpening the blade would improve it's handling any.
(Note: I still have not seen or handled one of these in person.)

..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
View user's profile Send private message
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you all for your input..

As I indicated , The reason I am interested in this sword, is to "fill a nitch" One problem, We who do research/presentations ,is to expose the "public" to ideas of the "actual" attire & gear the men used. ( contrary to the "mythology" )
When I do a "static" display, I try to present the Weapons/gear in a "generic way . Think what a NWC/HBC " lower rank clerk might have used. ( ie: example - Long arm = I display a generic "good quality "trade gun", the pistols are generic "brit" ( ketlands) etc.)

Up to now, I displayed what I had ( a custom "hunter", a Brit. Lt cav saber)., but I have come to the "conclusion, that these, while often carried, they cost $$ & the "common clerk" may not have had the means. As happens, the cutlass ( In one form or another) was one of the most frequently type mentioned, being used & was readily avail. Plus this genre of sword, was very adaptable ( easier to carry, could be used as a tool as well as a weapon ( as opposed. IMHO, the others for various reasons ))
I realize that "technically" (date wise) this sword is "dated. But to me it is "generic enough for the "Purpose" ????

BTW, as I mentioned, I "portray ' an upper level employee ( I have "funds') so my "load out is "high end" ( guns are " Mortimers" ( carried by David Thompson & others ) But I do "dress" in common field attire, & if I get this sword ( or another like it ) I will be carrying & using )

Jack
View user's profile Send private message
GG Osborne





Joined: 21 Mar 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack, another thing to consider is that the term "cutlass" might have just been generic for "cuttoe" which is loosely any kind of single edged short sword. If it were me, I'd just use a hunting sword rather than a hanger.
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,172

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
Jack, another thing to consider is that the term "cutlass" might have just been generic for "cuttoe" which is loosely any kind of single edged short sword. If it were me, I'd just use a hunting sword rather than a hanger.


May have been mentioned before but " Cuttoe " sounds very much like the generic French word for knife " Couteau ". Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Marc Bloom




Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: 22 Feb 2011

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack, have you considered the British Naval Cutlass?

http://www.gggodwin.com/CartGenie/prod-177.htm

I'm not endorsing this sorce just suggesting an option.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,900

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


May have been mentioned before but " Cuttoe " sounds very much like the generic French word for knife " Couteau ". Wink


Yes, cuttoe is a typical English mangling of a French word being applied to an English equivalent.

Hanwei shouldn't be calling that hanger a cuttoe, because they didn't use a d-guard/knucklebow. Below is a typical cuttoe



 Attachment: 69.23 KB
cuttoe9.jpg


 Attachment: 51.81 KB
cuttoe10.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marc Bloom wrote:
Jack, have you considered the British Naval Cutlass?

http://www.gggodwin.com/CartGenie/prod-177.htm

I'm not endorsing this sorce just suggesting an option.


That is an interesting option.

I do know this co. I have bought several items of clothing & accessories from them.in the past. But as to their swords, from my knowledge, they are not a grade of steel that can be sharpened & made in India.

Jack
View user's profile Send private message
Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri 04 Mar, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a pst project I use for demonstration. As usual I try to use period blades if I have the opportunity. This cutlass is fitted with an old german cut-down blade of high quality, decorated and sharp, found as-is. Bowl/clover leaf guard is hammered steel, grip is accacia wood. The maker made a knife-like pommel and I'm not sure how historic-accurate is this. Sheath & baldric are partly made of old guitar strap found in the local fleamarket, including a huge forged iron buckle.


 Attachment: 68.84 KB
cutlass1.JPG


 Attachment: 66.32 KB
cutlass2.JPG


 Attachment: 69.46 KB
cutlass3.JPG


 Attachment: 66.68 KB
cutlass4.JPG


 Attachment: 81.39 KB
cutlass5.JPG


Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Fri 04 Mar, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Cool Cool

Jack
View user's profile Send private message
Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Likes: 13 pages
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri 04 Mar, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the fur trade, I'd expect to see Napoleonic weapons--I'm pretty sure one of the Scottish fur traders actually says he had a French infantry sword.

I collect 18th c. edged weapons, and so far, I've never seen a repro by any maker that was as good as an original. I've handled reproduction long swords that WERE as good, so I know the capability is out there--but all the cuttoes and hangars I've handled are heavy, and all the originals I own are light as feathers with superb handling--even the British grenadier hangars, event the musician's swords.

Careful trolling of ebay ought to get a french briquette of 1800-1825 for about the price of a good repro ($500) and it'll be a much better sword.

Just FYI--I own a 1740's Grenadier officer's sword that was cut down--in period, by a very good cutler--and I have worn it in the bush, through all seasons and over thousands of miles of wooded terrain. I like ot think it was cut down for one of the Grenadier officers in the American Revolution... maybe on the Burgoyne fiasco...

nah, I'm dreaming. But it is a really interesting weapon. There's pics on the 18th c. swords thread.

Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri 04 Mar, 2011 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian, I have to agree with you. The same happens also with earlier period weapons but I think is true mostly with the mass-produced replicas and yet some of them are getting better & better. High end workshops produce very good weapons usually. Please check the works of Kyle Williard at Old Dominion Forge, whos works are stunning, but I never had the chance to handle one in person. His prices are upscaled though, not without good reason.
The cutlass I posted above weighs only 850 grams with a POB at 3", due to its historic blade and an expert maker who knew how to counterbalance a massive hilt to a relatively light blade.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian G. Cameron wrote:
For the fur trade, I'd expect to see Napoleonic weapons--I'm pretty sure one of the Scottish fur traders actually says he had a French infantry sword.



Just FYI--I own a 1740's Grenadier officer's sword that was cut down--in period, by a very good cutler--and I have worn it in the bush, through all seasons and over thousands of miles of wooded terrain. I like ot think it was cut down for one of the Grenadier officers in the American Revolution... maybe on the Burgoyne fiasco...

nah, I'm dreaming. But it is a really interesting weapon. There's pics on the 18th c. swords thread.


Christin, Your comment on "the Scottish Fur Trader" brings up a couple of good points.

1. Even a cursory study of the Fur Trade will result in the realization that the Scots play a a VERY "influential" part.
a. 2 of the Major Companys ( NWC & HBC ) were "Run & Staffed ( from "clerks on up") in all aspects.
b. They also were a part of the Chouteaus "dynasty" ( a "French " family here in the US)
c. Even Astor ( the Amer.) had Scots in "high positions"

2. These Men, contrary to many views, Dressed & armed themselves, According to their "social station" ( & what they could afford, had or could acquire)

3. The Swords they carried & oft time Used,, was up to them, & they varied a "lot" , .As with any research, we have the "problem" with the fact that accounts ( even the Official records ) simply use general terms, ranging from Sword, hanger, saber, cutlass, basket hilt, etc..Occasionally there is a more discriminative clarification, such as the one you cited.. ( Although, I am not familiar with this "reference", his carrying a "French Sword" would not be "out of line" esp. if he was with the Chouteas or NWC.)

DATE - Your " Napoleonic weapons" dating would fit, to some extent, with my quarry , but although this would be applicable to in many cases, but there are examples, from the time of Amer.Rev . & up to 1812. +

BTW, IMO, the Sword you carry defiantly is Great. It woud be one I would recommend carrying in the "field". Carrying a "long sword" in the brush = IMO is a "Pain in the "butt". Although I own "a couple" of long swords, I learned "real quick" to carry them only @ the "post" or "encampment."

Jack
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Revolutionary War Hanger (or Cutte) ???
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum