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Cliff Mitchell




Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: St Michael painting research         Reply with quote

Greetings,
I am looking for research about the following painting:


I have not been able to find much information about this painting besides that is from c1400 and mostly like from a Flemish painter. If anyone can point me to some specific research, that would be great.

I would also appreciate people's opinions as well, particularly about the armour portrayed. It appears to me to be a brigandine/corazzina with six/seven lame fauld and most likely gilt painted embossed velvet or leather. What do you think the shoulder epaulets pieces could be?
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've always loved that painting, but lost my copy somewhere along the way, thanks!

I have always suspected that the shoulders are single disc cops a-la the ones Mercenary's Tailor makes based on the Pistoia altarpiece:

http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=128

partially covered with pteruges added for decoration. The oak leaves at the bottom have always led me to believe the covering is meant to be leather.

Enjoy!
Cole
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Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
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Posts: 193

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darn it--those oak leaves justify something I wanted to do but funked! 1400? IS that a firm date?

Fantastic piece of artwork... thanks!

Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
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Cliff Mitchell




Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cole - Thanks for the link. I bet you are right about the shoulder cops. I had never seen those before.
How about the brass circle/diamond findings attached at the bottom of the fauld?

Christian - The date is not firm, actually do far the only information I have found is from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saint_Micha...Dragon.jpg
Date
First quarter of 15th century

Source
Metropolitan Museum NY
Author

Unknown Spanish (Valencian) Painter. (note: I was incorrect about the painter being Flemish)
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right, here are the details!

It's at the Met, and there has been a fair bit of scholarly discussion of the painting. In particular, the scholarship of the last decade is increasing certain it was painted by Alcaņiz, a Spanish painter active in the first half of the fifteenth century. The very latest scholarship is tending to indicate it was commissioned in 1421 by a priest in Jerica copying an earlier work now lost, by an Italian who painted throughout Europe, Gherardo Starnina, who was active from 1360-1413.

Looking at the style of some of Starnina's surviving works makes me think this is not an unreasonable argument:

http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/saint-stephen-31851
http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/saint-vincent-35898
http://www.clevelandart.org/collections/colle...r:Starnina

All in all, this leads me to feel that the painting is a fairly true to the style of the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th centuires.

Enjoy!
Cole
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like we're cross posting there, and my pleasure!

I'd bet the gilt mounts at the bottom are his hip belt (note where the dagger might be depending from it).

For mounts like that you'll probably want to start looking around Talbots, Museum Replicas, to Armour and Castings, Raymonds Quiet Press, Talbot, and the like.

If I see anything apropos I'll post it up Happy

Cole
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cliff,

I've been looking at stocking up on buckles and what not and have hit most of the casters, including Tod's Stuff, who I missed in the list above.

Sadly, repros of all free standing metal hip belt fittings seem to be pretty rare. The only ones I was able to find were at Raymond's Quiet Press:

https://www.quietpress.com/hip_belts.html

but none are quite what we see in the painting,

Some of the Roman pieces at HR Replicate may be adaptable,

http://www.hr-replikate.de/katalog/en/index.html

That said, in the end you may want to see about approaching someone for custom work if you're looking to build the belt.

Have fun!
Cole
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 5:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

N Cioran wrote:

Sadly, repros of all free standing metal hip belt fittings seem to be pretty rare. The only ones I was able to find were at Raymond's Quiet Press:

https://www.quietpress.com/hip_belts.html

but none are quite what we see in the painting,



These are not what we see in that painting, but there are other suppliers of hip belts, including:

http://www.anshelmarms.com/plaquebelt.html
Two pages here and here, with exquisite, but expensive belts.
http://revival.us/chivalricplaquebelt.aspx

I'm sure there are others as well.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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Posts: 612

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good digging Cole!

I've had that image for a long time but not the notes. Grazi!
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Cliff Mitchell




Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the links guys.

I had it in mind that it couldn't have been a belt in the image, it felt way to low. The artist has really elongated the waist. You are absolutely right about the dagger, which I had not noticed.

So the specific name for the belt is a plaque belt. It seems like they are a kin to lockets or charm bracelets.
The belts from Bractea are amazing.
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Jon Pellett




Location: Kamloops, BC, Canada
Joined: 01 May 2007

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dragons have nipples? Big Grin

Obligatory on-topic comment: sword and buckler in full armour, cool.
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My pleasure Kel!

Chad,

I have seen the Anshelm plates many times, but thanks for posting the link to Bractea, I'd not seen them before!

As to the question of what we see in the picture, I think you'll find I said the belt at RQPs was not the same .

That said, a close look at the painting does show that the artist is not depicting a leather belt with mounts on it either. In close you can see that the rivet heads of the brigandine are visible quite deep in the gaps between the diamond and round belt plates. That leads me to believe that it is a set of interlinked plaques without a foundation, something which doesn't seem to be all that common in the repro market.

Have fun!
Cole
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Pellett wrote:
Obligatory on-topic comment: sword and buckler in full armour, cool.

And standing in the Breast Guard (6th) of I.33.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The posts are coming fast and furious this afternoon Happy

Cliff,

The elongated waist is a feature of fashion in the period. The chest of the doublet/cotehardie was padded, accentuating the look.

The look is either fashon following armour, as seen in the high globose breastplate in this picture, or armour following fashion Happy

Jon,

Even better, longsword and buckler in armour Wink

Cole
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Cliff Mitchell




Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

Great call on the stance.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/I33-guards.html

How about the specific long sword and buckler type?
Albion's Kingmaker looks similar, but it looks like the one in the image has a single fuller.


The buckler looks fairly standard steel buckler with either leather strips/paint stripes.
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N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cliff,

I've found my bigger pics of this painting if you're interested. Drop me a PM and I'll post them.

Have fun!
Cole
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