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Luis Armando




Location: Mexico
Joined: 09 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: XII century Italian sword         Reply with quote

Good day knight´s, I regret that my posts are just doubts but that this forum is always clarify everything.
I have a project, a twelfth century Italian sword, drew a picture of what I want and would like to tell me if it is correct, if the pommel is right for an Italian sword and stuff, if influence is not much but to be exact I love the year 1175

before thanks and sorry for the inconvenience


"Dying is nothing when for the homeland dies" (Jose Maria Morelos)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: XII century Italian sword         Reply with quote

Luis Armando wrote:
Good day knight´s, I regret that my posts are just doubts but that this forum is always clarify everything.
I have a project, a twelfth century Italian sword, drew a picture of what I want and would like to tell me if it is correct, if the pommel is right for an Italian sword and stuff, if influence is not much but to be exact I love the year 1175

before thanks and sorry for the inconvenience


Luis,

It is important to understand that for much of the Middle Ages, most weapons cannot be specifically identified as being "Italian" or "English". The Holy Roman Empire was a very large scale manufacturer of swords, particularly so from the 9-12th centuries, but these swords could be found all over Europe, and it does not really make sense to identify them as being specifically "German". So in terms of identifying a sword as being specifically "Italian", it is next to impossible to do so for the 12th century.

Dating a sword with precision is even more difficult. There's no way we can narrow down a sword to a date as specific that you want. In most cases, there is a range of potential years that a sword could be appropriate for, which in some cases might exceed a century.

In regards to the sword you are looking at, there is nothing improbable about it being a 12th century sword. But it could have very easily been made earlier, and have still been in use in the 12th. Without having more information, it is tough to know for certain.

One somewhat reliable indicator however is grip length. I have noticed that swords dating from the latter half of the 12th century often have grips that are noticably longer than earlier swords. But this is just a guideline, not a hard and fast rule.
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Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice drawing! I think the pommel would be a bit more rounded towards the bottom and likely wouldn't come to a point at the top. I'm attaching a photo that shows some B.1 pommels from below. Notice there is a very slight curvature in both examples. It seems that the picture you have based your drawing on has a rounded bottom as well.


 Attachment: 77.19 KB
11200070.jpg

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim,

Is your photo from La Musee de Moyen-Ages in Paris?
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luis,

If you haven't done so already, I recommend you read the article here about Dr. Geibig's sword typology. Read it in detail, and also take a very close look at the sword blades in the photos. Try to see the differences in the blade lines between the different swords in his typology. http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_geibig.html
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Luis Armando




Location: Mexico
Joined: 09 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Feb, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your clarification, I have not made the sword ... be plowed when quite sure what I want ... thank you for putting that picture of the museum, will serve me a lot and spend Craig thanks for the link
"Dying is nothing when for the homeland dies" (Jose Maria Morelos)
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Feb, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luis, I agree with Tim. A wider pommel rounded more away from the hand will be much more comfortable, and (I believe) more likely to date after the 11th century. The Sword of St. Maurice (Turin) is a good example, and 'Italian' too! -JD
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Feb, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Luis, I agree with Tim. A wider pommel rounded more away from the hand will be much more comfortable, and (I believe) more likely to date after the 11th century. The Sword of St. Maurice (Turin) is a good example, and 'Italian' too! -JD


I agree that a more rounded pommel would improve this design, however we do see some tea cozy pommel or the "D" shapes which would seem consistent with a 12th. c. daating. many of these do feature a more sharp angle in the pommel This may just be my little nudge for the tea cozy pommel type (Oakeshott type B) which I feel doesn't get enough attention. Wink

Also, when you write "11th. century" I believe you mean 12th. century, or the 1200's.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have always loved that sword that your drawing was based on. Isn't that sword from early 12th c England? Does anyone know it's exact providence? The knight carved in the church of St. Justina at Padua seems to carry a sword much like this one, I think 12th c also.
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig, I'm not sure, I have so many pictures of swords and I am crap at cataloging them.

Jeremy, many type B pommels do have a fairly flat bottom edge but it seems a lot more common on the earlier examples of the type. Not saying it would be wrong, just uncommon.
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Luis, I agree with Tim. A wider pommel rounded more away from the hand will be much more comfortable, and (I believe) more likely to date after the 11th century. The Sword of St. Maurice (Turin) is a good example, and 'Italian' too! -JD


I agree that a more rounded pommel would improve this design, however we do see some tea cozy pommel or the "D" shapes which would seem consistent with a 12th. c. daating. many of these do feature a more sharp angle in the pommel This may just be my little nudge for the tea cozy pommel type (Oakeshott type B) which I feel doesn't get enough attention. Wink

Also, when you write "11th. century" I believe you mean 12th. century, or the 1200's.


Jeremy, I did mean after the 11th century (after 1099) because Luis' favorite date is 1175. As Tim says, there's no right and wrong here because flat-bottomed B1 pommels appear in Art right up to ~1250, but I also think they they were getting less common, and personally I prefer a more curvy pommel. So its a matter of taste isn't it?
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Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Luis, I agree with Tim. A wider pommel rounded more away from the hand will be much more comfortable, and (I believe) more likely to date after the 11th century. The Sword of St. Maurice (Turin) is a good example, and 'Italian' too! -JD


I agree that a more rounded pommel would improve this design, however we do see some tea cozy pommel or the "D" shapes which would seem consistent with a 12th. c. daating. many of these do feature a more sharp angle in the pommel This may just be my little nudge for the tea cozy pommel type (Oakeshott type B) which I feel doesn't get enough attention. Wink

Also, when you write "11th. century" I believe you mean 12th. century, or the 1200's.


Jeremy, I did mean after the 11th century (after 1099) because Luis' favorite date is 1175. As Tim says, there's no right and wrong here because flat-bottomed B1 pommels appear in Art right up to ~1250, but I also think they they were getting less common, and personally I prefer a more curvy pommel. So its a matter of taste isn't it?


Your totally right about the dating. I have this pet peeve about folks mis-lableing centuries and in my eagerness I didn't pay enought attention to your post. My apologies!

Regarding the tea cozies I just like to draw folks attention to them as I believe they can get overlooked versus the various brazil nut forms. I love brazil nut pommels but I love to see the tea cozy being made as well as it was a common pommel type.
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Luis Armando




Location: Mexico
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well ... then a bit more rounded would be best for this. Regarding the question of Scott's sword is Switzerland 1100.
I would ask a favor manufacturers, for now my time has been reduced a lot because my work schedule changed a lot, wanted to know if any of you that is a manufacturer could sell a pommel like Tim photo, just ask the pommel because right now I have no materialsdo so , I have just the materials for the blade and guard , and as I dropped my free time and do not think I can find the material to make the knob , ratherthan the pommel out of iron.
Thanks in advance

"Dying is nothing when for the homeland dies" (Jose Maria Morelos)
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