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What would you do with a bit over $1k?
Two Albion Liechtenauer Practice Longswords
20%
 20%  [ 11 ]
An Albion Practice sword and Mail voiders
22%
 22%  [ 12 ]
I would go for something else
56%
 56%  [ 30 ]
Total Votes : 53

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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Your opinion is valued         Reply with quote

Thus far in my endeavors this community has helped by suggesting and pointing me in the right direction to form my kit. And now I turn to you all once again.

So I have a choice of what to buy... so far what i have amounts to a full suit of armor from the Merc tailor, a dagger from A&A and a pole axe by A&A as well. I have for voiders stainless steel mail (butted that I made) ...

I will soon get a smidget over $1,000 that I can put towards this hobby.

I have been wanting to start a wma group in San Antonio, (As there is none here) though have lacked the ntitive primarily because I have no practice weapons.

I have been wanting to get properly made riveted mail..

So If you had a chance with a bit over $1k would you buy two Albion Maestro Liechtenauer Practice Longswords, So that you could be able to practice and start wma no matter if someone had a sword or not to practice with?

Or would you buy one Albion practice sword and complete your suit of armor with riveted mail voiders?


Another Idea that I had forgot to mention (thus it is not in the pole questions) Was an albion and a prperly made scabbard.
Or would you buy something else regarding arms and armor?

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age


Last edited by Christopher VaughnStrever on Wed 19 Jan, 2011 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would buy one Albion maestro Liechtenauer and three Tinker Hanwei blunt longswords.

There is plenty to do with blossfechten that requires no armour, and you have a big head start on anyone else you get to join you for harnischfechten, as far as armour is concerned. Most harnischfechten drill can be done unarmoured for a long time before you need to suit up, and really, riveted vs. butted voiders are not that huge a deal for this purpose. The main benefit of your armour right now is promotional.

Get yourself a good training sword that your recruits will admire and covet, and loan them something serviceable to get them started, but don't fund the whole enterprise for them or they won't value it. If you have three loaners you can have more recruits training. Have a policy that the newest recruits always get priority on loaner gear, so once you have some established students they are expected to get their own stuff.

Armour is fun, I have what amounts to a complete harness, although my voiders are incomplete. I almost never get to wear it, because none of my students have any.

Good luck, and remember that there are a lot of us out there ready to help out new groups with advice and information. I know that there are experienced teachers that are close enough to bring in for a workshop once in a blue moon. That's another place you might want to direct some funds.

Ottawa Swordplay
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Put the cash in an envelope and put it in the top of a closet. Form your group. See what gear members have. Take down the envelope and buy what you need to teach and train with those folks.

If starting from zero, I like the idea of having one fine sharp sword and lots of the cheap synthetic wasters from MRL. That way you can have lots of folks training in one session and still educate them about the differences between wasters and good sharps. I'd watch the Marketplace for a good deal on an Albion or A&A, get that, then get appropriate wasters (single-hand or longsword). You could get an excellent used sharp and four wasters of the same type for just under $1k.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, get a bunch of synthetic wasters. I really like the Rawlings myself. Get four or so and put the rest of the money in an envelope like Sean suggested.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's more interesting to you? Finishing out your kit and having a pretty sword? Starting a training group? What kind of training group?

Armoured combat is a subset of medieval combat. Starting a group in hopes of building an armoured student base is wishful thinking. Lots of people want to learn that 95% of material that doesn't require armour. If and when they do, they can transition into harness as they can afford to do so. Most people that scrabble together something resembling harness then try to figure out how to fight in it get pretty frustrated. Without the foundational knowledge acquired out of harness, the subset of techniques can be pretty baffling.

I agree with the others - buy some safe training swords and three weapon fencing masks and get your group going. Use the balance of any funds to rent some community center space and place ads in neighbourhood newspapers. Take it from there. Be sure to keep track of expenses and any token amounts collected so it remains "club funds" and not a personal expense out of your pocket.

My first inclination was to suggest you buy some WMA books or videos to help you train. You can probably find enough stuff online for free these days. Get the toys - attract the playmates. The ball rolls from there.
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I voted for the 2 Liechtenauers option as I am in the same situation. I want to train WMA but have none to train with. However I train with a hærkamp/viking group and if I can persuade any of them to throw cuts at me with my loaner longsword I have all I need. And as a bonus I might save a few good men from the dark ages ;-)
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Mike O'Hara




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Use wasters instead         Reply with quote

I think Sean's idea about the envelope makes sense - having run a karate school for many years, initial turnover is very high.

I was interested to see that most people were suggesting synthetic wasters instead of wood.

We got two of the new synthetics - they bounce. The feel is not really like steel.

I'm a reasonable hack carpenter and have made a set of oak wasters that, with a lead pommel, balance right in front of the hilt and move very nicely.

Total cost for 6, ignoring my time and existing wood shop tools, about US$ 250.

Just finished making some single handers for sword and buckler - same deal.

Start with the wasters and some welding gauntlets, them if you decide to do contact work, look at fencing masks.

cheers

mike

MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Allen Foster





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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you're serious about WMA, then go for the 2 Albion Liechtenauer's. I'm on my third year of hard sparring with an Albion Meyer and it's still going strong. i've sparred with padded swords, wooden wasters, synthetic swords, aluminium swords and even the Hanwei Federschwerts but didn't make any significant progress until my partner and I went to the Albion Steel trainers. You need two because the Albion will destroy a lesser quality sword so unless your partner has one too, it help only one of you. So far it's the closest to the real thing that I have tried.
"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would go for two Albion Meyers instead;) They a little bit better for ard sparring i think!
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

if you want to start practicing Liechtenauers art, go and buy the two albions. I did it the same way, two years ago, but I bought one Liechtenauer and one Meyer.

If I had to choose again, I would definitely buy two Liechtenauers now. The Meyer is just a tad to light, I guess. And it's ricasso is annoying while fighting Liechtenauers style (and its pointy ends are more dangerous, than they look like!).

my two cents,
Thomas

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's one problem I have with recommending Albion sparring swords. If you want other people to come out and play with you, you're asking them to sink a good $500 in a sword first. For a lot of new people that can be quite a hurdle. I know I would never have started WMA if I had to sink that kind on money in a sword up front.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
There's one problem I have with recommending Albion sparring swords. If you want other people to come out and play with you, you're asking them to sink a good $500 in a sword first. For a lot of new people that can be quite a hurdle. I know I would never have started WMA if I had to sink that kind on money in a sword up front.


It depends on what you want to do with the swords: train to fight like it was done back in the 15th century or doing just plain show-combat as seen in hollywood movies. For the latter you can use a 180-Euro-czech blunt, for everything else, I recommend an albion (well, there are some other czech swords, which would be usable, but they are harder to get). And for at least one sparrings-partner he will have a suitable sword, if he buys two. Big Grin And, Sander, it's an expensive hobby like surfboarding or mountainbiking - don't forget you'll need protective gear as well. We all do know that. Who's not willing to invest some money can't do it. That's how it is. And a beginner can always test with shinai, if the art suits him. (So, Christopher, keep in mind to buy some shinai as well for your group).

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sorry Thomas. I often find myself agreeing with you in other topics, but not here. Saying that you can't really practice WMA with anything but a $500 Albion sword reeks of elitism to me. That's a bit like saying you can't really really practice playing the guitar without owning a Fender. Or that you can't really practice horse riding without a $100,000 track horse.
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Keith Burgess




Location: New England Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Choices!         Reply with quote

Not my period, but I have recently, late last year, introduced sword fighting to our 18th century group's activities. I would go with An Albion Practice sword and Mail voiders, because you can make up a heap of wooden (kosher) practice swords for new members to use.
Keith.

“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David Thoreau.
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aw Sander, I don't say you can't practice with any other sword-like object. I just recommend the Liechtenauers, because I find them very suitable. Sure, you can use shinai (if you don't train binding and feeling), you can use aluminum wasters (if you don't practice thrusts at reasonable speed), you can use blunt swords (again, these won't bend that well while thrusting - varieing from type to type). Heck, you can even use broomsticks Big Grin or plastic wasters. It all depends on what your goal is. (I myself own Albions, some Krondaks and Shinai und we use them all, for what they are suited best.) And be aware: I didn't recommend the Meyer as I find it not that good... There are many cheaper and better Federn (far more bendable) out there to be used for Meyers Federfechten.

So have a nice week, until we find something to agree upon again, Happy
Thomas

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Allen Foster





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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander and Thomas are both correct.

If you're going to buy one Albion then you really should buy two Albions for the reasons that both Sander and Thomas have mentioned. Buying one Albion limits you to either fighting only those who can afford an Albion or fighting those who don't mind having their lesser quality sword chewed up by the Albion.

It is not elitism to say from experience that the Albion " is the best sword you have tried" and therefore the one you can recommend. The real point should be that training swords should be purchased in matched pairs, unless you are buying one that your partner already has. If the Albions are too expensive, then purchase a pair of something else. A pair of Hanwei Federschwerts can cost as little as 200 USD versus 1,000 USD for a pair of Albions . There are plenty of good production sparring swords that fall between those two extremes made by Arms & Armour, Angus Trim, Pavel Moc, Tinker Pearce, Valiant Armoury and more in Europe that I don't even know about.

If one person has a Liechtenauer and the other person is fighting with a Meyer, the person with the Liechtenauer has the decided advantage. The extra 5 or 6 ounces you get with the Liechtenauer will blow through a weak hangentort much easier than if you tried to do it with the lighter Meyer.

In summary if the trainers are not matched, one of the two students will be at a disadvantage and the lesson for both participants will be skewed.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a stupid question.
If you fight with a sword against poor quality, the result is that good destroys the poor quality.
But if they are both the same manufacturer and both the same, what happens?
Just a curiosity, perhaps a detour with my professional work.
In fact, if I want a machine part does not have to ruin, its coupling is always made with different material, usually less severe.
Is never good crashing two bulls. Happy
I hope not too off-topic.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Allen Foster





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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Maybe a stupid question.
If you fight with a sword against poor quality, the result is that good destroys the poor quality.
But if they are both the same manufacturer and both the same, what happens?
Just a curiosity, perhaps a detour with my professional work.
In fact, if I want a machine part does not have to ruin, its coupling is always made with different material, usually less severe.
Is never good crashing two bulls. Happy
I hope not too off-topic.


I can only speak from experience. My partner and I each have an Albion Meyer and Hanwei Federschwert. Neither the Albion for 500 USD or the Hanwei for 100 USD is designed to last forever. Each sword's life is degraded every time we spar. They just degrade at different rates. My Albion is three years old and judging by the wear and tear, it will last another three years against another Albion. My Hanwei is 9 months old and judging by the wear and tear, it will last another 9 months if I'm lucky against another Hanwei.

So to answer your question the higher quality sword will degrade at a slower rate than a lesser sword. A lessor sword will degrade faster than its normal life if it is used against a higher quality sword.

That is my observation.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Phil D.




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doesn't it really rely on skill level.Wooden or synthetic wasters are probably better for the beginners in your class...you can always upgrade as you get better.It seems that better quality weapons (especially live steel)are a good incentive to hone your skills.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

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Mike O'Hara




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Phil and the others in the thread who have said 'start slow'.

There are maybe 10 paying members in our WMA class but of the 10, 4 of us are regular and committed. The cost to outfit everyone (especially down here in the antipodes) is prohibitive.

Wooden wasters are OK for learning the basic wards and yes I know they don't bind or move like steel, but frankly I'm still pretty new to this all and I can't make the steel behave like steel in most cases yet either Big Grin

Once you get a core group of keen students, then start to build up the real gear and seek advice from the knowledgeable people in this forum for period information.


cheers

mike

MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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