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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject: Iron age helmet         Reply with quote

Hi Guys,


I'm wondering if there is some good material about helmets from the Iron age. I'm looking for archeological information about Germanic and Celtic helmets from western and northern Europa around 400 BC till 300 AD. Large timeframe, big area... Maybe there are people with good replica's?

Protection is a hard subject around the Celtic and especially with the Germanic peoples... so I'm hoping that there is some good material with you that can be posted here..

'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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Matt Lukes
Industry Professional



Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 26 Jun 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Magin,

Although it's relatively basic, Connolly's Greece and Rome at War has a 'tree' showing the development of the Celtic helmet from 400-100BCE, on p. 121. It just has a number of paintings of artifacts, which shows their general styles, and since most are quite simple, that's not too bad- the more useful things it gives are references- artifact and museum, which could aid your search.

Ohhhh- pillage THEN burn...
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T Franks




Location: Chicagoland Suburbs, Illinois
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Likes: 12 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh, good call Matt. I too was thinking Peter C.
He's got another book about Hannibal's armies and it has Celtic helmets too. It's kinda nice because he puts it on a timeline chart, like chronological for you. I really can't recommend his books enough. Not only do they give you a fair understanding in writing, but the illustrations are priceless. really, really usefull for reenactors and or hobbyists/enthusiasts who are trying to put together a kit. Samnites, etruscans, celts, you name it. Lots of good visual referances in his books.
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T Franks




Location: Chicagoland Suburbs, Illinois
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Likes: 12 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd say a coolus helm would be a good way to go for your region, since you are covering a large time frame. Something like the mannheim/hagenau helmets. A few so called "jockey cap" helmets were found in the Marne region. I don't know about the A.D. stuff. If you can narrow down your region just a bit (like, are we including British isles. or just continental?) and maybe a time frame (like Gallic wars, or Punic wars) then maybe I could give you some more input.
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T Franks




Location: Chicagoland Suburbs, Illinois
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Likes: 12 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One more thing... If you check myArmoury's "collections" you'll notice that Nate has a nice iron age collection, with a few helmet reproductions. You might be able to send him a message. Here are some helmet manufacturers that I know of

http://www.rudis-kuenstlerwerkstatt.de/gallerie-helm-engl.htm

Manning Imperial has some Celtic examples
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=42
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=42

Or, you can always try contacting someone like Arms & Armor, etc, to maybe have one made for you.
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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice..!

Problem with my group... We don't like Romans. So we wan't to avoid any Roman influence... so we prefer no Roman helmet types either. But the line with Celtic and Roman helmets is very thin, so an Celtic helmet could do the job.

However, maybe there are people here with information about typical 'Germanic' helmets?

Nice post about the Mannheim helmet Franks.. The best about it is one finding of such an helmet at Texel, Netherlands:
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=g+1949%2f5.1

That is very nice... A helmet like this is also found at the southern parts of the Netherlands where Romans had there influence. So maybe this helmet might be from a Roman soldier?

'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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T Franks




Location: Chicagoland Suburbs, Illinois
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Likes: 12 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point about "the line being thin" between Celtic and Roman Helmets. One thing I have noticed is that alot of the coolus helmets found in Celtic regions only have one hole on each side for cheek pieces or a chin strap. Quite a few Celtic examples were found without cheek pieces, while alot of the Roman ones were. Now, this could simply mean that the cheek pieces were not found, but I do know of one Celtic helmet example that has surviving leather cheek pieces (which is kinda freakish Eek! ). I think that alot of the Celtic helmets had leather chin straps or cheek pieces that just didn't survive the test of time. But to be fair, I know some roman helmets didn't exactly have cheek pices either, but instead had figure 8 thingies held by a single rivet, kinda like the repro on this page...

http://www.armae.com/Zenglish/greek_and_roman/roman_helmet.htm

So yeah, it's a fine line. hmmm Confused
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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Posts: 683

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 3:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The vast majority of Germanics in that period probably didn't wear helmets anyway.

To quote Tacitus:
Quote:
Even iron is not plentiful with them, as we infer from the character of their weapons. But few use swords or long lances. They carry a spear (framea is their name for it), with a narrow and short head, but so sharp and easy to wield that the same weapon serves, according to circumstances, for close or distant conflict. As for the horse-soldier, he is satisfied with a shield and spear; the foot-soldiers also scatter showers of missiles each man having several and hurling them to an immense distance, and being naked or lightly clad with a little cloak. There is no display about their equipment; their shields alone are marked with very choice colours. A few only have corslets, and just one or two here and there a metal or leather helmet.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html
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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Trajan's column depicts some Germanic warriors wearing basket-weave helmets similar to later Vendel/Valsgarde examples, in addition to the more typical Roman and Sassanid types. These helmets are very easy to construct and look good. Just start like you are building a leather spagenhelm, but use inter-woven strips instead of plates. Add a boar-crest and you have a very Germanic helmet.
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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan, 2011 5:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott, what timeframe would that be with that type of helmets? Where can I find a source with historical information?

And Franks.. you spoke about the Celtic helmets without cheeck guards.. Maybe they removed them from the helmets. Here in Holland are some founds of these type of helmets without check guards.. You also said that the might be from leather? That would not even been a silly move I think. If you look at the climate at Holland and Frisia here.. swamps, wind, rain... it had not been very nice to wear much metal armour. It is heavy in the swamps and very cold because of the temperatures and rain. So leather was a very good choise instead of metal. Also when you look at the fasct that metal could have been a rare product here..?

'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,368

PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Magin Hard wrote:
And Franks.. you spoke about the Celtic helmets without cheeck guards.. Maybe they removed them from the helmets.


Roman helmets are often found without cheekpieces, but the hinges for them are still attached, or at least it can be seen that there were hinges for them. However on many of the earlier Celtic helmets, it is pretty clear that there was nothing attached there, only a single hole for a chinstrap. Some Celtic helmets very definitely *did* have cheekpieces, though!

Quote:
You also said that the might be from leather? That would not even been a silly move I think. If you look at the climate at Holland and Frisia here.. swamps, wind, rain... it had not been very nice to wear much metal armour. It is heavy in the swamps and very cold because of the temperatures and rain. So leather was a very good choise instead of metal.


Is it that cold in the *summer*? Because that was the usual time for most warfare. Many of us have worn metal helmets in cold wet weather, and it's not really worse than not wearing a helmet! In fact a helmet is better rain protection than a fabric cap. Plus, armor seems to have been perfectly common in those areas in the middle ages, so did the climate change or did the people simply become more tolerant?

I suspect that metal armor was uncommon in those areas simply because it was uncommon! It was expensive, and not considered vital to their way of warfare.

Vale,

Matthew
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
Joined: 02 Jun 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun 16 Jan, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beware with quoting Tacitus' Germania as a source on Germanic life... Tacitus worked mostly from other sources and doesn't seem to have been anywhere near the romano-germanic border himself, so it's not really a primary source. The "naked barbarians" picture has probably at least as much to do with Roman propaganda and cultural tropes as with the reality of germanic material life.

On the other hand, helmets being a not-so-common, luxury piece of equipment is certainly a good hypothesis.
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