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Janusz J.




Location: Poland
Joined: 10 Jan 2011

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: I need help identifying British sword.         Reply with quote

Hello Everyone i am new to this forum and look forward to making many contributions. I need help identifying British sword. I can not find any information or pictures on the web. Thanks for any help


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Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sword cutler John Salter established his business at 35 Strand, London, in 1801 and continued at that address until 1824 according to Christie's.

I couldn't go beyond that--it's not any standard British military type--Naval or Marine or Army. But it's after my period, so anything I'll say is a guess. I believe Salter made weapons for the Russians...

Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you haven't done so already, you should post this inquiry in the antique and military sword forum over at SFI - http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11 - you will find many knowledgeable people there
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I may and just for my dizzy head, I am rotating some of these for other's considerations. While many will likely point to the American market for these, there were occasions where British officers (especially yeoman militia) bought what they wanted. My one mainstay reference for these is E. Andrew Mowbray's The American Eagle Pommel Sword The early Years 1794-1830 First editions still pop up on Ebay for $40 or less, with new crispies a bit more. What was meant to be volume one, volume two was never finished (a real shame) and his son Stuart Mowbray heads that publishing company still and collaborated with Norm Flayderman in presenting the Medicus collection photos with many of the eagle types the elder Mowbray had written about.

www.manatarmsbooks.com/

That as a preface, I do not have a definitive late date for this work and the difficulty there is that Salter sourced parts from both Birmingham and Solingen is producing some pretty mixed up but very nice swords. Some of this sword has a bit of the rococo frippery seen during the French first Empire and could easily place it early but (big but) the blade and a likeness more like the S&K "rebirth" of frippery after the war of 1812 along with the pipe back blade pushing both that and the neo classic hilt as late as the 1830-1840 period. Much of the hilt parts speak Solingen exactness to me as opposed to the aging mercury poisoned gilders of Birmingham and the absolutely overboard decoration of hilts in the first decade of the 19th century. The New York families of Wolfe, Spies and the Upson brothers sourced from Salter along with other English cutlers. There were also other collaborations on both sides of the pond before during and after the !812 exchanges.

What we see here is a very fine sword in terrific condition hilt wise but I suspect the blade may not be quite as pretty over time. i would love to have good point up pictures of the blade decorations, while the hilt and blade will usually present better long wise edge down hilt our left and just hilt shots upright left and right.

I say tentatively 1830. maybe just abit later but as mentioned some of his fine work on chasing the details does go back to 1810ish but with simpler hilts. I could just as easily accept the earlier decade but something smells like S&K (Solingen) to me. The blade as well looks of the later option. It is obviously a fine bit of work with the finest gilding and the counterguard decoration points to artillery. As "yellow" that would fit for American tastes but again, not the only market.

Cheers

GC\\PS

Dmitry Z~G has a pretty good eye and probably a better exposure overall to the entire vein of Eagle Head Pommels. This one is yet another new one for my ever expanding eagle files. I have a couple of more books here to thumb through but artillery says artillery to me.



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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To echo Christian's input, Bezdek lists Salter at 35 Strand from 1801-1824, and 73 Strand from 1825-1831. OldSwords also lists the same dates. Salter was Cutler to the Duke of Sussex, Lords Exmouth and Nelson, and to the Patriotic Fund. I would place it a bit earlier, perhaps 1810-24.

Is there any decoration on the blade?
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the dates. Mowbray has a good little chapter on London and shows some of the Salter work around 1810. Enter S&K operating from 1811-1865 and iirc establishing an agent in London by the 1820s, so the timeline mentioned seems right in line with my feelings of an S&K involvment. Also in the Mowbray eagle book, just past the Salter pages proper is the S&K eagle with the neo-classic hilt (dated to 1840 hence my later than early observations of Salter's earlier cutlery work).

Cheers

GC

A ps

Pictures of the blade would be really nice. While not unknown to happen, marriages of scabbards and swords are a bit routine these days. The blade condition in the few shots shown doesn't much match the condition of either the hilt or scabbard but hilts do survive better than scabbards often do.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 11 Jan, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bezdek states that Salter bought blades from Henry Richards, Henry Osborne, and the Gills of Birmingham.
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