Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Peened vs. Thread Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Donald Dupuis




Location: Massachusetts
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject: Peened vs. Thread         Reply with quote

As a newcomer to this forum I have read topics on certain desirable features for sword selection. What interest me is, what is the preference of hilts that are peened or threaded and why.
As a design engineer I am very familiar with the strength of threaded joints, is the choice to have hilts peened purely one of historic accuracy?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depending on the method of attachment, a peened pommel may keep the pommel aligned better. I have seen disk pommels that were directly threaded to a tang without a pommel nut, meaning that if it needed tightening, the pommel had to be shifted out of alignment unless it could be tightened exact half-turn increments.

Of course, a tang that goes through the pommel and is attached with a threaded nut also avoids this.

I do think that a peened pommel gives an impression of greater strength. I honestly couldn't tell you if it is stronger or not.

I suspect historical accuracy is a factor in most people's preference for peened pommels, although we know that some manuscripts show threaded pommels (Gladiatoria and one of Talhoffer's, offhand).

I do like the idea that a peened pommel is not going to start loosening off during use, although I know fittings can work loose regardless. Generally though, I personally like threaded tangs for ease of repair and maintenance.

I expect I am an anomaly as far as these opinions go.

Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,503

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I prefer peened pommels both for reasons of historical accuracy and for aesthetic reasons. My period of interest is the 9th-12th centuries. Peened pommels were the rule of the day during this period. I also happen to think they look a lot better than threaded pommels. The durability of a peened pommel is not that important to me as my swords mostly hang on my wall.
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,584

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote:
Depending on the method of attachment, a peened pommel may keep the pommel aligned better. I have seen disk pommels that were directly threaded to a tang without a pommel nut, meaning that if it needed tightening, the pommel had to be shifted out of alignment unless it could be tightened exact half-turn increments.


That's the main factor for me. I've had several swords in the past with screw-on pommels that required tightening, perhaps when the wooden handle shrank with lower humidity, thus resulting in mis-alignment. I suppose one could shape a thin washer to fit the gap, but to me that's annoying and take away something from the sword.

In contrast, its not hard to re-peen a sword.

This does not pertain to pommels with screw-on nuts over the pommel. I'm OK with those, although they are not historically accurate for the period that interests me right now.

-JD
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jonathan Blair




Location: Hanover, PA
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 479

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't like threaded tangs. In fact, I hate them. With a passion.

I have one sword with a threaded tang and pommel nut. It is impossible to get tight. I always get a rattle/ticking sound when at play with this sword. None of my peened swords do this. One of these days I will peen the threaded tang, but not today.

Frankly, I don't understand the whole reason for threaded tangs on medieval swords.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,584

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
I have one sword with a threaded tang and pommel nut. It is impossible to get tight. I always get a rattle/ticking sound when at play with this sword. None of my peened swords do this. One of these days I will peen the threaded tang, but not today.


Jonathan, try this if you have not already: if its a round nut, first place a thick rubber band around it to provide grip and avoid damage, then use something like a vice grip to tighten. It has worked for me in the same situation. If this does not work, it may be that the handle is glued onto the tang, not allowing you to tighten the cross against the blade. If so, it will still be a problem if you try to peen. I have encountered all of these situations. -JD
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm ok with threaded pommels, as long as they are historically accurate.

So for a late medieval / renaissance sword, or for a contemporary sword I think it's fine.
View user's profile Send private message
Tom Kinder





Joined: 27 Nov 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can completely understand people liking peened over threaded for the appearance of historical accuracy or for Aesthetic reasons (seems like these are both the same reason to me).

I can understand people hating the screw-on pommels that get mis-aligned if they need to be tightened.

however, when it comes to pommels the wood of the grip really shouldn't have a large effect on the tightness of the pommel in my opinion. a well fit pommel should snug up to the flaring tang and either get peened in place there or fastened in place by a nut. the peen or the nut should press the pommel against the tang NOT the wood grip. if the wood grip is what is keeping your pommel snug or not then your problem isn't a threaded pommel it is poor hilt construction. if the pommel is snugged against the tang properly then it is less likely to loosen and if it does anyway then I suspect that is more likely to be a sign of poor harmonics than the fact that a nut is somehow inferior to a peen.

in my opinion as an engineer of nearly 20 years a nut is every bit as good as a peen and probably even better. when you tighten a nut you are actually stretching the threaded rod inside the nut a little bit. this stretching is what is being measured by torque measurements. if you add a lock washer under the nut or if you apply some manner of thread locker you have an assembly that will take a LONG time to loosen even under hard use, and if you use epoxy or something similar you can create a bond that will last, if not forever, than at least a heck of a lot longer than a peen will.

this all said, low end swords rarely get this part of assembly right, and even some of the higher end swords still don't, but there are those that do.

there are also ways to disguise threaded and nutted assemblies to look like peens. so really I don't see the issue as being one of "to peen or to thread" but rather one of "what do I use as my compression points?" we just mistake the issue because so many threaded assembly swords are low end and done wrong to begin with thus ensuring their failure. we simple blame the wrong thing. the nut is innocent, it is the maker who is guilty of this crime.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom Kinder wrote:
however, when it comes to pommels the wood of the grip really shouldn't have a large effect on the tightness of the pommel in my opinion. a well fit pommel should snug up to the flaring tang and either get peened in place there or fastened in place by a nut. the peen or the nut should press the pommel against the tang NOT the wood grip. if the wood grip is what is keeping your pommel snug or not then your problem isn't a threaded pommel it is poor hilt construction. if the pommel is snugged against the tang properly then it is less likely to loosen and if it does anyway then I suspect that is more likely to be a sign of poor harmonics than the fact that a nut is somehow inferior to a peen.



Tom,
I understand your point, but I'm not sure history backs it up. Some (perhaps many) historical swords seem to have been put together with a compression fit, where the pommel does indeed press against the grip which in turn presses against the guard, keeping it all in place. That's one reason why a number of surviving swords have loose crosses now that their grip is gone. You also see a few surviving swords where the pommel, in the absence of the long-gone grip, has slid down a bit from the peen.

For more info on threading vs. peening, see these threads:

Construction method comparison
Dismountable hilts on Western swords

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tom Kinder





Joined: 27 Nov 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 10:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad, I've been feeling rather feisty today it would seem. yes, you are correct, I knew that and perhaps I made my example seem more exaggerated than I intended. I was basically talking about the sandwich method but with the guard and especially the pommel fit so that it would snug up on the steel at the same time as snugging up to the wood core of the grip. obviously one wouldn't want the grip to be loose and I would think that having the tang made so the pommel could advance far enough along the tang to crack the wood of the grip before snugging up would be bad too. the pommel should stop on the tang before the wood is compressed to breaking point. the slight compression of the wood should do good things for dampening vibration in the hilt too. with the sandwich method it is very easy to peen the pommel in place then apply the wood core so that it compresses itself as it is applied. I think this is a very good method. I'm sure that historical swords made differently were done that way for a reason and I expect that they must have worked well for their intended purpose. obviously the craftsmen of old knew this game far better than I do. my point though, was much more geared towards modern swords and how they are made. I still believe that a nutted together hilt can be at least as good as a peen if not better, and that the determining factor of which one is better lies in the craftsman more than the method. I believe also, that the various screwing on and nutting down methods have become looked on as inferior because companies that seek to cut costs and take short cuts often find some nutting or screwing method cheaper (especially if they don't do it right) and they are more concerned with the cost than the quality. this obviously leads people who seek quality to dislike the methods used by these craftsmen/companies but it is the craftsman/company that should be disliked or at least the exact method used by that craftsman/company and not a method in general that can be done properly and well when done by a conscientious craftsman. I'm saying that if a craftsman takes the time to do it right there will be no reason to complain.

there will always be the people who like the peening method for no other reason than it is more historic and that is a valid argument. it is not a valid argument to say that peening is in and of itself a superior method from a mechanical or engineering perspective assuming work of the same quality in both cases.
View user's profile Send private message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Where I do prefer hot peened ,I also do own a Hanwei/Tinker and a Valiant/Atrim both of which are threaded. The tangs are beefy on both, I do like both swords,When I first got the swords I did epoxy the grips on to the tang making sure the guard was solid sandwiched then I used red loctite on the hex nut .After years of use these swords hilts have not moved there are as solid as you can get ,as solid as a hot peened ,yes i think so.I also cheated a bit by soldering over the hex nut filling it in and sanding it down which gives it a hot peened look.


 Attachment: 37.52 KB
DSCF0220.JPG


Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Cunniffe wrote:
Where I do prefer hot peened ,I also do own a Hanwei/Tinker and a Valiant/Atrim both of which are threaded. The tangs are beefy on both, I do like both swords,When I first got the swords I did epoxy the grips on to the tang making sure the guard was solid sandwiched then I used red loctite on the hex nut .After years of use these swords hilts have not moved there are as solid as you can get ,as solid as a hot peened ,yes i think so.I also cheated a bit by soldering over the hex nut filling it in and sanding it down which gives it a hot peened look.


James,
I think you mean the filling and sanding gave it a "peened look". I'm not sure how you could tell the difference between a hot peen and a cold peen visually. Happy Both and hot and cold peening are viable methods of assembly. Not all peening is/was done hot.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad you are right , that is what I meant ,a peened look LOL. You just cant see the hex nut with what I have done.


 Attachment: 36.68 KB
DSCF0251.JPG


Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message
Tom Kinder





Joined: 27 Nov 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that's a very sexy look James, I may just have to do that. what kind of solder did you use? there are so many different mixtures to choose from. I'm sure I could find one that would work but then I wouldn't be benefiting from your experience.

I have a few nutted pommel swords that have had the parts fit extra snug with compression on the tang and no glue or loctite or anything and at least one of them has been in my possession for several years of heavy use and never once loosened at all.
View user's profile Send private message
James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom I just used plumbing solder which I got off a friend. Wish i could tell you more .
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Peened vs. Thread
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum