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James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Darksword Black Prince?         Reply with quote

Does anyone have more info on the Black Prince by Darksword ,I know all the specs and it seem to me to be a knock off of the A&A Black Prince , but are Darksword swords as bad as everyone says ?It seems like a very nice sword apart from the threaded pommel which I'm not sure i would like being threaded that is . Also what is the tang like are they full tangs ??
Also a question on A&A Black Prince are they hot peened or a nut ,I ask because Kult of Athena states that the pommel is nut tightened and when you look at the photos on the site it does appear to be.

Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whether a sword is "bad" or "good" is often relative to what you want it for : historical accuracy ? Nimbleness ? Edge ? Thoughness ? ... What do you intend to do with it ?

Here's a review of this sword : http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/black-prince-sword.html

Personnally, I once ordered a Darksword (another one, a longsword) and was disappointed. However it was not the same model and I had certain expectations that perhaps another person wouldn't have. Bottom line is, while for me Darksword isn't very interesting anymore, other people have apparently been happy with their swords from this maker, notably other models (haven't found anyone else who bought the same as mine), probably also because they had other expectations... Your mileage may vary !
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James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Simon I have seen this review but its the quality of the tang that I'm most interested in ,on the DSA Black Prince if the tang is of poor quality and not drawn to a lower RC then Yes this would be a BAD if not dangerous (even for a $300) sword.
i am just thinking of getting this sword for a project but i would love to see the tang before i spend $300.

Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, here are two pics of the tang on my Darksword :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hakonjarl/4081461340/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hakonjarl/4080700739/

However, keep in mind that it's not the same sword.

Can't say anything about the hardness of the tang, though.
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Bryan W.





Joined: 27 Oct 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have never bought a Darksword piece but if there's a question about a technical aspect of the sword, why not just ask Darksword directly?

I have bought from A&A before, though not their Black Prince sword, and they've always been very good with questions as well.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Darksword Black Prince?         Reply with quote

James Cunniffe wrote:
Also a question on A&A Black Prince are they hot peened or a nut ,I ask because Kult of Athena states that the pommel is nut tightened and when you look at the photos on the site it does appear to be.


As a general rule, A&A swords are peened, but done cold as far as I know. The very end of the tang is often cut for threads and a pommel nut is used to help tighten things down before it is peened. So they are in some ways both threaded and peened. The nut helps provide the initial tightness during assembly, then the peen locks it all down.

But A&A can hot peen on request and could likely not thread the end of the tang and nut, but might charge extra to do so. I'd second the recommendation to contact them directly. They're helpful folks. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad your info was very helpful in making my mind up. Where from what I have read the DSA blades are very tough and can take a beating it is the tang quality I am most worried about or the not knowing.I know the A&A is twice as much but it is twice the sword too and I do love the size and shape of the pommel on there Black Prince , the threaded pommel on the DSA sword also is a put off for me if they had a pommel nut like the A&A Black Prince it would be more appealing.So the A&A Black Prince will be the next sword for me ,I will be going to the KOA store which is not far from me and handle both swords and take a few photos of both together just to compare them ,I think the pommels are the biggest difference between these swords apart from the quality and price that is.
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.


Last edited by James Cunniffe on Thu 06 Jan, 2011 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darksword recently announced that all of their swords will be made peened, I think. So if you like the black prince you should ask them about it. They also might be willing to make you a peened one as they accept some custom jobs.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A typical A&A peen over nut assembly is not a bad arrangement but there can be a couple of issues with it. One of three I have owned is in fact their BP (in bronze). Having had it apart and back together, I have found the pommel bottoms out as a wedge fit, which is a good thing in one way but a bit of trouble. Because it is a compression fit, no amount of wrenching the threaded parts were going to make it absolutely tight. Here with a GBS my Black Prince and is still a favorite of modern made while some find it a bit clunky or less than bottle friendly ( a huge factor for some). Also the basic upgrades to the A&A BP some years ago has made it a bit prettier.


A better look at another one off A&A with that tang treatment.


There use to be a lot fewer XVa examples out there on the market and it has now become quite swamped. Of the higher priced spread along with A&A are a slew of Albion XVas and I'd love to own any of them if shopping them again. Gus Trim did some quite beefy XVas as well but they may well get relegated to past history. Generation 2 produced both a Black Prince and a Lucerne. From what I have read in some reviews is that the Lucerne was the winner between those two specific productions. Just based on what I have read, the Generation 2 and Darksword offerings are probably a pretty good apple to apple comparison (again based on internet feedback).

Eyal of Darksword is a good bit closed lip about his productions and in the end may be doing himself a great dis-service in disclosures but they are what they are in the end. Just another outlet for the basic profile look while adjusting over time to customer feedback. If just looking for a blade and parts, they might be the cheapest to buy as a project. My A&A prince is pretty stout with little distal, just as the type was meant to be and a real can opener. At the same time I had managed mats (in my olden days). So I wouldn't expect the Darksword blade is going to be horrendously bad, just as some felt the Generation 2 price felt nicer to them and the Lucerne possibly the best of the batch. However, handling is going to be quite subjective. One more niddling little nit about Darksword is their site and ad copy overall. Steel listed as 1060 and then a formula that does not compute to be simply 1060. hat is just one of many misconceptions. No big deal but it does somewhat go to the root of truths and consequences. With their updates have come much better scabbards, apparently for pennies more as well. That edge would go to Darksword over Generation 2, as a basic complete package.

IIRC, the Gus sword I'm thinking of was a 1403 but I may be mistaken. One batch of Gus' work was done in thicker stock to begin with and it is both the Gus and Albion blades (with A&A always negotiable) may really shine overall if one is looking at a best do-all. In the meantime and for the budget minded, I would shop around some more if just looking for parts.

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Thu 06 Jan, 2011 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
One more niddling little nit about Darksword is there site and ad copy overall. Steel listed as 1060 and then a formula that does not compute to be simply 1060. No big deal but it does somewhat go to the root of truths and consequences.


Yeah, I had this kind of problem... Length stated for the sword on the site and length of the sword I recieved were not the same (something like 1" or 2" difference, I don't have the numbers at hand). On the other hand Eyal has been a nice guy, when I brought that up he offered to send me a free dagger as compensation... Very nice of him! Too bad I'm not very interested in daggers... Razz

If it were me, and if the modding bug bit me (which it is starting to do, all because of Mr Sean Flint - curse you, Sean ! Wink ), I'd contact a nice Czech smith (there are lots of them) about ordering a bare blade... Some do interesting pieces for interesting prices... Of course, I live in France, so there's also the shipping problem for someone in the US...
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For me, it has often been a could have (should have) approached things a bit differently but I'll never feel bad about my BP and despite some of its own assembly issues, one I wouldn't modify a great deal.

The Darksword blade could always be ground later to suit, so too much may be better than not enough. Without a real shop space here my thoughts on much grinding fall to file work and a bit of drilling here and there.

Cheers

GC
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James Cunniffe




Location: chicago/ireland
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From what I think now of the A&A Black Prince some of the swords have enough exposed threaded tang (1mm/2mm) to be torch heated and hammered to a be hot peened ,also before doing that if you epoxy the grip the hilt would be as sturdy as an Albion sword .This is just my opinion .
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is plenty there to have material left for more peening but it becomes a bit superfluous. The peen blocks were found in the olden day, so they make more sense of it than the Darksword faux peen block cast as part of the pommel itself. There is no danger of the thread being an issue on the A&A swords and really not likely to even loosen (the nut itself). What the nut does provide is snugging up a compression fit without needing to peen it tight, UNless shopping for a used one (I think Athena has a second hand one listed), It doesn't make much sense to just ask Craig to have it done to one's own preference.

I believe Sean Flynt peeled one A&A handle apart without disturbing the pommel, which would attest to the pommel to tang fit is tight but I have noted on all the A&A swords in hand here over time could have been a tighter cross fit. My bronze prince may have just been a busy day of finish assembly as the guard opening was filed a little raggedly and the grip core a touch off center. It actually came a touch loose but was easily snugged up ( cold December weather as well). I need to pull it apart again anyway to deal with the grip too short, so maybe I'll snap a couple of pictures but there isn't a lot to see aside from a haphazard look to the assembly. That in the ragged cross opening, the core off center and pommel bottoming. Easy fixes and some things I had forgot about in use as none of that was noticed when using the sword. The other bronze fitted sword (EIII blade, Urbino cross and pommel) also settled a bit and was similarly easy enough to snug up. My GBS had come second hand and the last owner was maybe not aware of the threaded peen block, as it looked the tang peen had been given some whacks. That sword has been unmoving and rock solid here and has had a fair amount of cutting with quite a bit more of just air handling in morning stretches.

The tang of both my BP and that Edward/Urbino beast were left quite rough in grinding them out. Maybe so just to make the solid core handles a little easier to file them out with the tang themselves. Many might be shocked in seeing that vs the quite smooth tangs of a Gus sword and even some other A&As I have seen apart.

I bought that Erbarwardian mongoloid twice and traded it once then finally selling it back. It has been redone once more to more of the EIII hilt length and there is an XVIIIa that is honestly quite amazing to handle now.

Cheers

GC
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not the Black Prince sword, but I own an A&A Scholar sword. I bought it second hand, and I like it a lot.

The tang is threaded with a pommel nut disguised as a peen block and the end peened over. At some point, the fittings started to wiggle a bit and I had to tighten the pommel nut, meaning that there is now one turn of threaded tang exposed beyond the nut.

This doesn't bother me at all, and if it did, I am fully capable of peening it further. Since it's a working sword, I figure it's easier to do future maintenance this way if I need to. Plus, I've never had anyone else notice enough to comment on it.

The construction on the Black Prince may be different.

Ottawa Swordplay
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James Cunniffe




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have looked at a lot of photos on line of Dark sword tangs and the photos that Simon G. has posted you can see that the DSA tang tapers to a very narrow round threaded tang ,how structural sound this is I don't know or how historical correct it is ,so I looked at all the Antique albums here and found only one sword where the tang tapered down to a round tang ,it was on the Irish two handed ,I know this was done for a different reason ( because of an open ring pommel )but the Irish sword tang worked so make's me think if the DSA tangs work just fine but i will always prefer a more beefy tang .I would love to see an A&A tang ,I still don't like the idea of a threaded pommel but a threaded pommel nut is fine with me.
Though the pen is mightier than the sword,
the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
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