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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: The nature of 14thc English body defences?         Reply with quote

Like as seen here: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/roger...106/large/

I'm guessing it's some sort of globose breastplate under a laced jupon, but what about the waist/hips? Stylization makes it difficult to determine weather it's showing the natural waist, or a fauld of some sort under the jupon.
Maybe an early corrazina?
Just curious if anyone has experimented with this look.
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Nathan F




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

could just be a jupon or maille shirt it does not have any distinctive shape or features to lead me to believe it could actually be anything else. it just forms to the contours of the body like a tight fitting shirt.
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Piotr H. Feret
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We don't know for sure what is under the jupon. It could be only a breastplate or full cuirasse. In my opinion it is breastplate on a mail shirt.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Dec, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From text evidence I'd say that no knight would be without some plate chest defence after 1320... actually Blair said that but from what I have seen seems to be true so far. .... anyone with that much plate would not be without at the least some type of COP but by this date my guess is a breastplate.

RPM
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Daniel Sullivan




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: The nature of 14th C. English body deenses?         Reply with quote

Given the era, I would say a breastplate over a maile shirt. Below the decoration on the bottom of the jupon is what I believe to be three rows of exposed maile. Could be part of the jupon, but I don't think so. One would think there would be more of a distinct line between the cloth and the maile, but perhaps the jupon was of a thin material??

Cheers,
Dan
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: The nature of 14th C. English body deenses?         Reply with quote

Something else I noticed is that 1350's-1380's the outline is elongated, probably representing a breastplate over mail. After that, it's usually a sharper outline like this one: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/hugh_...111/large/ , most likely due to the use of a plate fauld.

Daniel Sullivan wrote:
Given the era, I would say a breastplate over a maile shirt. Below the decoration on the bottom of the jupon is what I believe to be three rows of exposed maile. Could be part of the jupon, but I don't think so. One would think there would be more of a distinct line between the cloth and the maile, but perhaps the jupon was of a thin material??

Cheers,
Dan


I'm quite sure that's mail at the bottom, almost all effigies show a bit mail there.
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Nathan F




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

is there any pictures from the side sometimes if you can catch a glimpse of the armpit you can see what sort of defense is in there just a thought.
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Piotr H. Feret
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are only few of many others example of such bossy shape under the jupon/cotte d'arms:

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Warwick%...%20211.JPG

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/2006%20M...0%2057.jpg

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/2007%20M...%20337.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1624517892/

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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan F wrote:
is there any pictures from the side sometimes if you can catch a glimpse of the armpit you can see what sort of defense is in there just a thought.


I also found a somewhat more revealing one from about 1350 here: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/john_.../original/

You can see his armour all down the side fo the surcoat and the armpit, what could that be? It looks like an inside-out brigandine!
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Nathan F




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

with the shape of the chest and that style of plates im thinking a corinza it matches pretty well and has the same sort of plate lay out.
although the plates get smaller around the armpits it could be a lamellar its hard to figure it out really.

for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Piotr H. Feret
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Location: Bielsko-Biala, Poland
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Dec, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Effigy of Sir John Leverick was describe by Benght Thordeman in Armour from the Battle of Wisby 1361 Vol. 1 p. 300-301:

Quote:
In the oval opening between the lacing the armouring on the plastron can be seen(...); this consists of horizontal iron plates or scales which are riveted to the plastron and overlap from the top downwards. The armouring is, therefore, on the outside of the plastron, and its representation must be perfectly accurate, because the monument has been executed with the utmost realism in all its details. Here, too, the armouring seems to project over the shoulder where it forms a kind of short sleeve.


Some similars example of armour are in Manesse manuscript - The Romance of Alexander.

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