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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 3:07 am    Post subject: Help with iron age sword parts         Reply with quote

Found some intresting hilt parts, found in the Netherlands... I can't really place these parts in the 'complete' picture of a hilt type... maybe some people can help me with this.

This pommel had been found near Nijmegen.. A large Roman city during the Roman iron age.
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=NS+105b
However, this found has been dated -500/ 0 which maybe means that the pommel is sfrom a La-Tene sword? There have been found some La-Tene sword in the same area.
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=NS+105c
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=NS+105a
Anybody can place this pommel? Maybe some examples of sword hilts with this kind of Pommel?

An other part is an Roman hilt. Made from bone and found at Valkenburg.. Many Roman stuff has been found there. Dates 40-250 AD. Wondering if there are some hilt examples with these kind of hilts?
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=h+1991%2f9.LV+s

'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,368

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ave!

Couldn't tell you about the pommel, I'm afraid, especially without being able to see it from other angles. But Roman bone grips of that general type are common enough.

http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/mcbis...fig040.png

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html

However, this is the first one I've seen that has ribs like that raised from a basically flat surface--usually the shape is more of a wave with a pointed crest.

Thanks for posting that!

Matthew
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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed, I also find it very 'subtile'.. Thnx for the post
'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Magin, the first pommel you posted looks very much like a medieval sword pommel. I feel fairly certain it has not been dated correctly. Sometimes objects from later times "contaminate" find places of earlier periods.
(For example: there is what is almost certainly a medieval bauernwehr knife listed as a roman knife in the finds from Vindonissa)
The pommel is photographed from an unusual angle: the top. That makes it not so easy to recognize. You see the top hole an can almost see the bottom hole through it. It is a pommel of wheel shape (Oakeshott pommel type J). These were sometimes cast in bronze and then made hollow, just like this pommel.

Below some hollow bronze pommels displayed in Kopenhagen. They are not of type J, but I (or H). Otherwise you can see the likeness, with the holes for the tang and the hollow construction:



 Attachment: 61.12 KB
P1020584.jpg


 Attachment: 88.18 KB
This may not be a very Roman knife even if it is found among roman equipment... [ Download ]


Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Wed 08 Dec, 2010 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like the theory... But is it possible that the pommel I posted fits the grip an other way?
The hole in the round pommel on the picture... I thought that it serves to adjust the blade to. Otherwise, why does it have a hole in the middle?

Hope you understand what I mean..

'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Magin, I am sorry, I donīt understand.
:-)

The hole you see is the smaller of the two holes that let the tang pass through the pommel from one end to the other. The hole that is forward in the picture is the one on top of the pommel: the smaller of the two, that fit the narrow tang end more or less.

Through this hole you can see that the hole on the opposite side is larger: it is shaped to fit the tang on the grip side as it enters the underside of the pommel (fit more or less, I should say: the fit is not always very exact).

in the right hand of the picture you can see there is a large corrosion hole in one face of the pommel. That makes it a little more difficult to read the image.

You see the pommel as if you looked at the sword from the very top end. Its edges would be facing top and bottom of the picture.

Hope this makes it a little more clear what I mean.
:-)



 Attachment: 51.84 KB
P1020058_2.jpg
A sword from the same angle and turned the same way as the bronze pommel in your first post.
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Magin Hard




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 25 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ha great... the picture really does the big work, haha. No that is what I meant, but could not read that with your first story. Ok clear to me. The round shape of the pommel first made me think it had to be a Roman shape... but your pictures tell a good other story..
'The cruels and threachery of civilization, that is barbaric!', said the free Frisian to his son..
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