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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Riveted mail movement.         Reply with quote

A friend of mine said me that sometimes the riveted maile, because of the shape of the riveted rings, can "jam" or block in place, limiting your movements (this friend made the example of the shoulder movements).
I mean, is the riveted maile less "fluid" that the butted one?
Can you tell me you experiences?

Thanks

Augusto.

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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, assuming it's made for you (that is to say that it is tailored), made reletivly well, and is maintained well, in my experiance it is like a second skin and one suffers no problems at all.
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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 1:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i expect that it would depend on how tightly it fits, but mine, which is fairly well made and a good fit, though not tailored, has never give me any trouble at all.
it can bunch up when you are putting it on, but as you get used to putting it on and taking it off you figure out how to avoid that.

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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 3:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be a little more precise, I'm talking about the GDFB Round Riveted Mail, which is the cheapest around here.
Anyone owns it?

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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, in a way it is more prone to "jamming", tailoring helps, but cinsidered both are the same in terms of shape, the butted one well flow more freely. I would still prefer the riveted stuff. Best compromise would be a semi solid shirts. flat solid rings and round riveted ones. The problem with the riveting is, that the cheaply made Indian maile has too long rivets. All the links I put into my shirt during the tailoring process are much better. The best, but most expensive solution, would be to take links with wedge rivets. I for myself got a 6mm ID shirt where wedge riveted links were not available.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eh, I (will) have a relatively low budget, 670 euros for a "piece of iron" it seems to me a little exaggerated, so i have to buy a "poor and simple" round riveted mail.
Another question: apart from the shape and movement question, will it limit my movements wearing a plate arms protection more than the butted mail does?




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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Afraid I can't help you there. Mine is a haubergeon and I wear the sleeves over the top of my vambrace. I do wear a segmented breast plate over it, with out any trouble.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about the round rivets. As I understand it well done wedge rivets looks like round rivets in any case. The real concern is that the rivets are the right size (not too long) and that they are set right. They are both period anyways, depending on when you are talking about.

Looks like you got the start of a great kit, by the way

31. And there are some whom everyone should consider to be wise...
-Le Livre de Chevalerie, Geffroi Charny-
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, the first compliment in more than 6 months, thanks Big Grin .
Next will be wisby type gauntlets, a brigandine and knee cops.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Riveted mail movement.         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
A friend of mine said me that sometimes the riveted maile, because of the shape of the riveted rings, can "jam" or block in place, limiting your movements (this friend made the example of the shoulder movements).
I mean, is the riveted maile less "fluid" that the butted one?.

This is yet another problem with current imported riveted mail. The shape of the link is the problem, not the type of rivet used. Mail that resembles the museum examples do not have his problem.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So the inner diameter have to be as more rounded as possibile?

Whch between these two os the best?
http://www.swords-and-more.com/shop1/popup_image.php/pID/6364
http://www.battlemerchant.com/popup_image.php?pID=790&imgID=1

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i find that i had just as much issues with butted mail that i do with modern riveted. both can snag clothing underneath just as easily as the other. BUT butted will always open up and be in need of repair, riveted does not usually need it
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

machine made round rings tend to look like beer can ring pulls, as there is a very distinct difference between the ring and the flat bit where the rivet goes through.
In general, flat ring mai riveted looks better, and presumably snags less (I've never tried round ring...) as it does not have the large "rivet plates" that cheap round ring riveted do.

I have had very few problems with my flat ring wedge rivet hauberk. It also weighs less than half of what a comparable butted mail shirt would.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, once again in my experiance, the round links (as opposed to 'flattened/punched') are still heavier. So I'd go small (6mm seems to be the go) flattened/punched with roundhead rivets.
That's just me though. Laughing Out Loud

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW, historical mail often is of slightly oval shape rather than perfectly round. I would think that could help the links naturally orient themselves with the rivet at the lower end. Might prevent such problems. Just a guess.
-Sean

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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am with Chuck on this one. Although at first well made butted maille might seem "smoother" or less abrasive to your arming garments, over time with use it will open up and become actually worse.

I just got my first piece of wedge riveted Indian/Pakistani maille a month ago and I have to say it is noticeably better than the round riveted. I think in general that is the direction that this mass produced riveted maille is going. If you can't afford the extra cost of the wedge riveted, than as others have said one thing you can do is to buy the maille that has riveted rings alternating with solid rings. That cuts in half the number of rivets.

"Jamming" at the shoulders. Hmm. well there are three distinct methods of attaching the maille arms to the body. the most common is the 90 degree method - where the pattern of the torso maille just continues out into the arms, i.e. the rows of the torso continue straight out into the arms which are 90 degrees to the torso (the watershed of the arms and the torso are the same when the arms are extending straight out to the sides). This is how almost all off the shelf maille comes. Easiest to make but it can restrict movement. Other ways to do it are to create the arm tubes separately from the torso, with the watershed running longitudinally down the arm and then attach the arm to the torso at whatever angle works best for you. the third method is often called mantling, it is a combination of the two methods, where the watershed of the maille of the arm is circumferential, but the arms are attached to the torso at angle angle you want (usually 45-60 degrees). Also, you can add rings in a circular pattern (similar to the top of a coif) to the outer elbow area to make the arms flex better.

In general as already stated, its a matter of tailoring. tr
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ug i had one of those hauberks i totally hated it. (the degree sleeved) i could never lift my arms above my head due to restriction and weight
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But is the "half rivetted" mail historicallly correct for the middle ages (XIV cen.)?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, the half riveted mail is more correct for the early periods.
The logic behind this is more down to earth than one would think; In the early days, mail was being made by skilled smiths and their apprentices. If you are standing in a building with a forge, and have the know-how, welding shut a ring is easier than riveting it; You only need to open/close half of the rings to make the weave anyhow.
If you are opperating a semi-industrial mail production business in the late middle ages, however, you might find that it is cheaper to buy "mass produced" wire, and employ common laborers instead of smiths. Any 16-yearold can make mail from wire. It just takes time, but labour is cheap. You no longer have a forge or labourers that know how to weld, so you rivet all the rings instead...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Elling: I thought that the solid rings were punched from a sheet?
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Dec, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ya u will find punched rings in roman thru 15th c. at least last i remember anyways
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