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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Wed 01 Dec, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Interesting Ottoman Star Twistcore Kindjal Translation help         Reply with quote

Hi All,
I've been trying without much luck, to translate the missing word from this beautiful Kindjal blade.
As you can see, it says 'Amal ****** 1322' So 'Work of ****** 1904'.

If anyone has any idea what the missing word (name) is, I'd be eternally greatful.
Many Thanks
Gene



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Kindjal1.jpg



Last edited by Gene W on Wed 01 Dec, 2010 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Wed 01 Dec, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

LOL, still learning how the forum works. Having to add extra pic in second post!


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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 5:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

BUMP back to first page
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry I don't read Arabic, or is that Persian? But it's a very handsome blade.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't help with reading the inscription, but would like to say thanks for posting this.
The fullers reveal a twisted core ("turkish twist style") center, which, is interesting as an example of Persian pattern welding. All forms of "damascus-wootz/pattern welding/ etch-inlay patterns" were said to have been done, but I don't often see examples of Persian blades with "European style pattern welding" in them.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Johan,

Thanks Happy

Now I've had a chance to read a few more threads on these boards, I see that people like the construction side here. So as you've been kind enough to compliment this blade, I'll add some details for your perusal (and others!).
Obviously these swords have a traditional 'roman-esq' look to them and parallels with the Gladius are often drawn. They are usually associated with the Caucasus, but this one is Turkish. The inscription should be Turkish (Arabic characters) but the makers name is proving to be quite a challenge in translating.
For those who like dimensions and weights etc, here is a picture of the sword with figures added.



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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Sat 04 Dec, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
I can't help with reading the inscription, but would like to say thanks for posting this.
The fullers reveal a twisted core ("turkish twist style") center, which, is interesting as an example of Persian pattern welding. All forms of "damascus-wootz/pattern welding/ etch-inlay patterns" were said to have been done, but I don't often see examples of Persian blades with "European style pattern welding" in them.



Hi Jared,

You are very welcome. I'm just adding some technical info on this blade. Hope very much that you enjoy it! Happy


As you know, this particular pattern is a very old 'design'. Allegedly used in Europe back into the classical period, supposedly mentioned in norse epics, popular with the ottomans, given many names etc, etc.
Often, on Turkish/Ottoman blades (usually Kilij and yataghan) the pattern is 'larger' occupying a wide band down the centre of the blade. As these blades are polished the result is a lower contrast pattern with usually far larger and fewer stars.
See this excellent example here:
http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s049_full.html
The interesting thing (from my perspective) about seeing this pattern on a Kindjal is that it seems usual (on the few examples I've ever seen) to incorporate it into the fullers and often to etch it to a far higher contrast.
So, what we have here, is a double twistcore in star pattern, with around 80 stars visible in a double row down the blade.
As if that isn't amazing enough, consider how far back this style of pattern welding goes, then consider that this was made in 1904. Very unusually late for a blade of this quality.
Here are a couple of close-ups of the blade. The one showing the end section shows the construction of the blade, with the double twistcore continuing to be just visible into the polished area beyond the fullers. It also shows the additional steel of the sides of the blade and the hardened cutting edge.





Now if I could just decipher the makers name, I'd be happy!
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Gene W




Location: The South Of England
Joined: 01 Dec 2010

Posts: 116

PostPosted: Tue 07 Dec, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just in case anyone is working on a translation here. I thought I'd add this tracing of the inscription with the name the right way up (the wording and numerals are opposed). Also it has been suggested that the first word may not be amal.

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