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Tim Odell





Joined: 24 Nov 2010

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: late 14th century use of maille under plate./?         Reply with quote

I have been studying late 14th century English effigies in preparation for reproducing my own harness. I understand that a haubergeon was worn under full plate at this time, but am unsure what exactly was worn under the leg harness. Many effigies that I have found clearly show maille guarding the backs of the knees and ankles, but I am unclear if they were wearing full maille chausses or patches of maille stitched to padded/gamboised chausses that only cover what the plate does not. If wearing full maille under plate, are there issues with the maille interfering with the articulations of the knees?
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Tim, AFAIK in the earlier parts of the 14th century, maille chausse were used in addition plate defences covering the front half of the leg. This arrangement was replaced as some stage towards the end of the century by, stand alone, plate defences. It might be helpful if you could post a pic or a link to some of the effigies you speak of.
Éirinn go Brách
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Tim Odell





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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a couple examples of what I'm referring to. The first photo, c. 1390, is the effigy on which I'm basing my harness.


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MCSCanterburyCathedralEdwardofWoodstock137606.jpg


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MCSIrnhamStAndrewAndrewLuttrell1390.jpg

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well to me Tim this just seems like a full plate leg harness, as I said above these replaced the earlier maille chausses whit plate re-enforcement towards the late 14th century.
Éirinn go Brách
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That late in the 14thC, its likely mail patches at the inside of thigh, circumference of knee and ankle.
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
That late in the 14thC, its likely mail patches at the inside of thigh, circumference of knee and ankle.


but do we have proof to that though Sad
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Tim Odell





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PostPosted: Wed 24 Nov, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would agree,as it seems like such overkill to have full maille under full plate but I haven't found any proof either way yet
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Till J. Lodemann





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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 3:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's sheer impossible to wear full mail chausses under full plate legs, as tight fitting as they are (and need to be).
As you say, it's a total overkill, not only protection wise but also in weight and movement restriction. But that's no hard proof, you're right.
Would be fun if someone tried this out and report his exprerience here! Big Grin
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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

if you look closely at the inside of the left knee on the effigy of the Edward (the one posted) you'll see what looks to be maile. one can't be sure, but thats what it looks like.
still, at this point i would think that it would be voiders as opposed to actual maile chauses. just my oppinion with little to no factual basis. Razz

31. And there are some whom everyone should consider to be wise...
-Le Livre de Chevalerie, Geffroi Charny-
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Till J. Lodemann





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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I know them. We have no direct evidence, but we know at least some interesting hints towards the use of voiders in this timeframe
For example,the "demi haubergeon" from the Visby Massgraves. It's literally a mailshirt which is belly free, going only down until the niples. It was most certainly worn under a coat of plates. It has already been discussed here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...haubergeon
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.

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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jojo Zerach wrote:
Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.


No, not always.

If you look and the first two effigies posted by Tim, both have mail at the gap between the sabaton and the greaves and on the 3 D carving, mail is covering the back of the thigh.

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.




If you look and the first two effigies posted by Tim, both have mail at the gap between the sabaton and the greaves


That's what I said.
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David Teague




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jojo Zerach wrote:
David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.




If you look and the first two effigies posted by Tim, both have mail at the gap between the sabaton and the greaves


That's what I said.


I'm sorry. I'm confused. Worried

The effigies posted by Tim are of the late 14th century "with the highly shaped later greaves" and the first clearly shows maille at the back of the leg (knee & thigh) and both more at the ankle. You said "Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have been covered by plate" I was just pointing out, no they did not as these show (along with a number of other late 14th century effigies) the use of maille in those areas.

Cheers,

David

PS my late 14th century harness (and I have yet to do something about the backs of my legs as you can see in the second photo )



With sleeveless gown and knightly belt





DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I said "inside/back of thigh" I was refering to the fully enclosed cuissies, which seem to have been common at the turn of the 15th century.

David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
Mail legs seem to have been worn in the early 14th century with simply shaped half-greaves, though not likely with the highly shaped later greaves.

It wouldn't make sense to wear full mail chausses just to cover the back of the knee and the front of the ankle.
Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have bee covered by plate.




If you look and the first two effigies posted by Tim, both have mail at the gap between the sabaton and the greaves


That's what I said.


I'm sorry. I'm confused. Worried

The effigies posted by Tim are of the late 14th century "with the highly shaped later greaves" and the first clearly shows maille at the back of the leg (knee & thigh) and both more at the ankle. You said "Even the inside/back of the thigh during this period seems to have been covered by plate" I was just pointing out, no they did not as these show (along with a number of other late 14th century effigies) the use of maille in those areas.

Cheers,

David
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David Teague




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PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jojo Zerach wrote:
When I said "inside/back of thigh" I was refering to the fully enclosed cuissies, which seem to have been common at the turn of the 15th century.


I just want to be sure we are on the same page, are you taking 1390 or 1490? 1390 has lots of maile covered back legs.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I meant like 1390's-1400.
Full cuissies seem common on English effigies during this time, like the example I posted above.

David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
When I said "inside/back of thigh" I was refering to the fully enclosed cuissies, which seem to have been common at the turn of the 15th century.


I just want to be sure we are on the same page, are you taking 1390 or 1490? 1390 has lots of maile covered back legs.

Cheers,

David
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David Teague




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PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jojo Zerach wrote:
I meant like 1390's-1400.
Full cuissies seem common on English effigies during this time, like the example I posted above.


To my knowledge they were not full cuissies in use at that time but the 2D carving makes them appear so.

A French late 14th century statue of St George (dig the backs of those legs).



Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
Kel Rekuta wrote:
That late in the 14thC, its likely mail patches at the inside of thigh, circumference of knee and ankle.


but do we have proof to that though Sad


Hey - I said "likely" Chuck. Razz

Clear illustrative and monumental evidence of mail in those places + decades of experimental archaeology with the variables involved leads to interpretive conclusions. Hence 'likely'.

Kel
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not trying to say open cussies weren't common, although the closed cuissies seem to be depicted fairly deliberatly.
They first become in the apparent in the ~1390's. You can see lots on effigies and brasses, though this one is pretty typical.

David Teague wrote:
Jojo Zerach wrote:
I meant like 1390's-1400.
Full cuissies seem common on English effigies during this time, like the example I posted above.


To my knowledge they were not full cuissies in use at that time but the 2D carving makes them appear so.

A French late 14th century statue of St George (dig the backs of those legs).



Cheers,

David
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