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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: English books about Brescia Spadona         Reply with quote

I received some confidential and unpublished information about Brescia Spadona .
I have all the books in Italian where they speak of this sword, even if it is written one line only.
I want to know if these stories are never really published. Do you know English books or magazines that talk about this sword?
Even though books are in German, the important thing is that there is at least one line.
I hope not to drain my bank account, Big Grin so if it's just a line, a photo page, by e-mail, would be appreciated.
Thank you for your patience.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

apparently no risk to my bank account.
Apparently the British have not written anything about it.
I think I'll write a book, in English, of course Eek! ... just a little hiperbole. Big Grin
joking of course. Happy

Ciao
Maurizio
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
apparently no risk to my bank account.
Apparently the British have not written anything about it.
I think I'll write a book, in English, of course Eek! ... just a little hiperbole. Big Grin
joking of course. Happy


Understand that you're asking people to go to their bookshelves, flip through their books, take note of what's there, type it up and send it to you. So the post you wrote in 30 seconds might take someone 20-30 minutes or more to respond to (it's taken me more than 30 minutes). Not everyone is willing or has time to do that, especially in the 2 days between your posts.

It's not in Oakeshott's Record of the Medieval Sword, Sword in Hand, The Sword in the Age of Chivalry, or The Archeology of Weapons. Nor in Claude Blair's European and American Arms, Coe's (et al) Swords and Hilt Weapons, or Harvey Wither's Swords and Sabers. Not in the DK Eyewitness Book Knights or the Edge/Paddock Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight or Aldo Cimarelli's Color Treasury of Arms & Armor. Not in Paul Martin's Arms and Armour or Frederick Wilkinson's Arms & Armour. Not in AVB Norman's Arms and Armour or Stephen Bull's/Tony North's An Historical Guide to Arms & Armor. There may be one or two others books on my shelf that have a few pictures of arms and armor in them, but they'd be unlikely to have it.

It is in the Rossi book, which you have in Italian.

Happy

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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello boys

Maurizio
the first copy is mine. A GRATISEEE!!! , it's clear!.
I want it with the Peter Johnsson's dedication otherwise you can keep it!!

Wink Quiet!! it's all ok!! i allerted the fire brigade!!!

bye
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ciao Roberto,
I disagree. I just disagree with this.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad,
thanks for your time, I thought that many books talked about the sword.
In the end I thought it was easier.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Chad,
thanks for your time, I thought that many books talked about the sword.
In the end I thought it was easier.


Easier for who? Certainly not easier for me! Happy

This sword is not all that well published in English-language sources in my experience. I have books on arms and armour in several languages in my library. I've noticed there often seems to be a tendency for a work in a particular language to focus more on local examples than examples from all over: English works have lots of swords from the Wallace Collection, the Tower, Leeds, Fitzwilliam, etc.; German works from Dresden, Berlin, Vienna, etc.; Italian works from Brescia, Bargello, Stibbert, etc. It makes sense as the author is likely more familiar with works in their home country than elsewhere. Plus, it's easier to secure rights to publish a photo when the item's owner speaks the same language you do. Happy

Happy

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov, 2010 6:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio,

It would be great if you could do the opposite...provide us infromation from your books in English. I for one would be very grateful.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ditto. Cool
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Ditto. Cool


Ditto: What does this mean? Eek!

Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Maurizio,

It would be great if you could do the opposite...provide us infromation from your books in English. I for one would be very grateful.


Ciao Michael,
It is a pleasure for me to share with this community.
In Italian they are not written many books, so I thought a lot in English.

The first I prefer the English version. In this way, I do not have to translate.
The book is translated from "Lucchetti Editore - 1990".

Text here:
SPADONA OR LARGE SWORD
ltaly, early 1400s.
Museo Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy.
Sword called da una mano e mezza (for a hand and a halfl. The length of the handle allowed it to be handled either with one hand, while riding a horse, or with two (during a fight on foot ). The lenticular section of the wide blade made fighting using the point imposslble, while this was possible with the stocco or rapier. The one shown is a hybrid weapon: the blade in fact is inscribed, with bronze damascening, with the German insignia of Lupo di Passau (Solingen), while the shape, with downward points to the hilt, is certainly Italian.



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Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Book, rare, "Armi e Armature Lombarde" Authors: L. Giogio Boccia - Francesco Rossi - Marco Morin - Publisher Electra - Milano - 1990.


Italian text:
Spada da una mano e mezza, Milano, inizio del XV secolo. Brescia Museo Civico Marzoli.
Impugnatura rivestita in pelle con pomo a prisma; elso a bracci dritti, con punte ricurve; lama a sezione lenticolare, recinte sul forte, in agemina di ottone, uno stemma con cimiero, e la marca del Lupo di Passau-Solingen.
Arma da cavallo o da duello a piedi, la spada a una mano e mezza Ŕ larga e a doppio filo; si distingue sopratutto per la lunghezza dell'impugnatura che ne consente l'uso sia a una mano che con due. La presenza della marca del Lupo di Passau in uso a Solingen dal XIII secolo, denuncia la provenienza tedesca della lama, ma dovette essere esportata e montata in Italia, dato che il fornimento trova un preciso riscontro in una spada rinvenuta nella tomba di Gian Galeazzo Visconti (m. 1402) ed Ŕ quindi da considerarsi milanese.

English text translated by me Razz
Sword Hand and a half, Milan, beginning of the fifteenth century. Brescia Civic Museum Marzoli.
Grip covered in leather with a prism pommel, hilt with arms straight, tips curved, blade-section lenticular, engraved on strong, inlaid in brass with a coat of arms crest, and the brand of the Wolf of Passau-Solingen.
Weapon duel on foot or horseback, sword in one hand and a half wide, double edged.
We distinguish, for the length of the handle that allows the use of either a hand or two. The presence of the brand of the Wolf of Passau in use in Solingen from the thirteenth century, denounced the German origin of the blade, but had to be exported and assembled in Italy, the hilt is a clear acknowledgment of a sword found in the tomb of Gian Galeazzo Visconti (d. 1402) and is therefore to be considered from Milan.



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Maurizio
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Kel Rekuta wrote:
Ditto. Cool


Ditto: What does this mean? Eek!


Ditto means: Me too, " same thing as the other guy just said "

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Maurizio! Do you have any more?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
[

The first I prefer the English version. In this way, I do not have to translate.
The book is translated from "Lucchetti Editore - 1990".

Text here:
SPADONA OR LARGE SWORD
ltaly, early 1400s.
Museo Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy.
Sword called da una mano e mezza (for a hand and a halfl. The length of the handle allowed it to be handled either with one hand, while riding a horse, or with two (during a fight on foot ). The lenticular section of the wide blade made fighting using the point imposslble, while this was possible with the stocco or rapier. The one shown is a hybrid weapon: the blade in fact is inscribed, with bronze damascening, with the German insignia of Lupo di Passau (Solingen), while the shape, with downward points to the hilt, is certainly Italian.


Quote:
The lenticular section of the wide blade made fighting using the point impossible


This does seem wrong to me as I'm assuming the text is referring to other swords of the type X or maybe even more the Type XIII and only saying this in comparison to the much " pointier " Brescia Spadona.

An lenticular sectioned blade can be effective in a thrust if the blade is stiff enough and the point " pointier " !?

A broad spatulate point doesn't work well against plate armour in finding gaps between the plates and the pointier blades might be able to defeat maille while the spatulate ones would be useless for this.

But against the unarmoured even a very broad point can be used for an effective thrust and against cloth armour the spatualte points might be able to defeat them in the thrust but they are very effective with a tip cut.

Anyway, a little off topic but the point being ( pun alert ) that even the best sources can be wrong or seem wrong if they deal in generalities and skip the subtleties by being too brief. ( Or written by an art historian having very little experience in period fighting before the Renaissance and the use of Rapiers. Confused Maybe a bad translation from the Italian. Wink Question ).

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Text here:
SPADONA OR LARGE SWORD
ltaly, early 1400s.
Museo Civico L. Marzoli, Brescia, Italy.
Sword called da una mano e mezza (for a hand and a halfl. The length of the handle allowed it to be handled either with one hand, while riding a horse, or with two (during a fight on foot ). The lenticular section of the wide blade made fighting using the point imposslble, while this was possible with the stocco or rapier. The one shown is a hybrid weapon: the blade in fact is inscribed, with bronze damascening, with the German insignia of Lupo di Passau (Solingen), while the shape, with downward points to the hilt, is certainly Italian.


This text is from the Rossi book, right? The English version of that book is not well-written, with a lot of awkward sentences and oddly used terms.

Happy

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Thanks Maurizio! Do you have any more?


Spolia - Journal of medieval studies - UniversitÓ degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza"

Author: Graziano Galvani

an excerpt:
"The sword is very different from "estoc" (a term that designates the function of a weapon to be used almost exclusively for the tip) along with the carved figure of Cangrande: if the sword can be both a sword from one hand as a hand and a half and always with a sharp blade and a strong section, often without fuller, wide at the heel and gradually to narrow towards the tip, balanced in this case closer to the wrist of its wielder.

A very nice one-handed sword is engraved on the tombstone of a Bagnocavallo Tiberto Brandolini 1397 San Francesco: the knight in full armor and holding this sword appears in act of striking with a hit it (the Renaissance term coined to identify a point shot pulled from top to bottom with the edge of the sword that looks straight up and thumb down).

In the case of the sword in one hand and a half talk instead of a weapon particular form or function to which it must be a substantial "evolution fencing" in the handling of iron, which saw its own expected growth in the historical period in which he lived Grande della Scala .

It is a sword rib or ribbed, often with very sharp tip (as in the case of estoc) suitable unrivet with powerful blows to tip the enemy armor plating and at the same time allow cutting actions made by moving more close to the heavy swords and economic sweet spot.

Due to its length than the sword in the hand (100 to 120 cm) and above the handle (which allowed a horse to challenge the gun with one hand and on the ground with two hands going in part to take on the pommel which hence the term one hand and a half), the sword was given the name of bastard or insidious, misleading, given the different arms of games possible.

A sword in one hand and a half really nice you can see at the "Museo Civico Luigi Marzoli in Brescia" is a weapon very well preserved, which comes to 120 cm long with faceted pear-shaped pommel and guard stretched. The tips are curved.
The blade ends with a very pointed but not really a estoc, as the lenticular section for the entire length of that seems to exclude such use."

Graziano Galvani is a scholar and teacher in-arms.
I have great respect for him.
His other books, the ones I know are:
Arte di Daga
Flos Duellatorum 1409-2002
Nova Scrimia
Scherma di Bastone

Ciao
Maurizio


Last edited by Maurizio D'Angelo on Mon 08 Nov, 2010 3:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Jean and Chad,
Yes, the book is what you say.
I give a sense of what Rossi says: the tip of Brescia Spadona is impossible to use as the point of a rapier or estoc.
Rossi knew the difference, he saw the sword on many occasions, but the most important thing and that he had heard the views of her co-author Mr. Boccia.
On the same page he specifies the photos already posted 225 the word "stocco", also in the picture 226 repeats the word "stocco"
Boccia has never spoken of the tip of Brescia Spadona, but on the same book on the next page is a published another sword. The sword is Estorre Visconti, tells us how he felt about the tip.
From the book "Armi e armature Lombarde" mentioned above.

Fig 225 (same page posted above)
... Is a typical example of Italian "stocco", characterized by a short grip, short by a guard, a solid tip ..
Fig 226
"The Stocco is a type of sword, with a very strong tip, suitable to be used to tip. ("Stoccata")
Is a very common weapon in Italy - is documented in many iconographic documents - the disclosure of which is parallel to the precocious development of the Italian armor plating.
Fig. 224 Boccia wrote: sword hand and half, not "stocco".
I may be wrong but I do not remember that ever since Mr. Boccia has a different definition for this type of swords.
Who knows Boccia know how much care taken with the definitions.
Rossi knew the difference.
Seems to be associated with the word Stocco: a solid tip
The definition of a Stocco is slightly different in Italian and English, but when we talk about Italian swords, we should consider valid the Italian definition, just not to confuse this.
I tend to consider this weapon is a weapon of transition, even the defensive armament was in this era of transition. In other words, swords and armor that were evolving, just at this time. so ...
Now my idea is: this sword is suitable for both cutting to the thrust.
Between the two, the cut is its natural vocation. Thrust is not equal to that of a stocco.

My time is up, between 2 hours I have to get to work. Happy



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Estorre Visconti.jpg
this is Fig. 226

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Maurizio
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, Maurizio - you are a gentleman, a scholar and a judge of fine liquor!!! Cool

Thank you for providing these quotes as well as translations of them. Grazi!
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Ah, Maurizio - you are a gentleman, a scholar and a judge of fine liquor!!! Cool

Thank you for providing these quotes as well as translations of them. Grazi!

Kel,
thanks for your kind words. Here there are many scholars much better than me.
You already know their names.
I just consider myself a student of elementary schools. We have much to learn, but we love this ...


P.S.
I learned from you: ditto
you learn from me: "Grazi"...no,.... is right... "Grazie" Wink

Ciao
Maurizio
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