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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 7:31 pm    Post subject: Looking for some advice--15th c. Bascinet of rare type?         Reply with quote



These two figures from the Getty mss of "Il Fiore di Battiglia" appear to be wearing bascinets with a bill, or some sort of transitional pre-burgonet.

I'd love to get one of these helmets reproduced for mounted combat, but I need more information. Has anyone else seen this style elsewhere? Any extant originals/other contemporary illustrations? Fiore is 1409. I'm only interested in examples 1370-1425.

FYI, this helmet style recurs in many other illustrations in Fiore, leading me to believe it may not have been so uncommon in period. i am not an armour expert by any means--all help gratefully appreciated.

Christian G. Cameron

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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote







A few more images, all from the Getty Fiore Mss.[/img]

Christian G. Cameron

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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And a few more....


Same as first image but closer up...



Is that the start of the sallet? What is that--was chapel de fer with some of the brim cut down? Help!

Is that a cloth arming cap, padded, worn OVER the steel cap? (left bottom)

pls note that the crowns in some images are merely an artistic device for showing which figure is the one performing the martial movement int he description...

But the brimmed helmet/pre-burgonet seems to be on quite a few "masters" and I wonder if it is a helmet that Fiore himself owned?

Christian G. Cameron

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

We find these celata on all ranks of soldiers in Italian art throughout the period you mention. A number of Altichero di Zevio's works show them circa 1370-1380, both on footmen and mounted officers. I don't know of any surviving examples offhand but I recall a reworked bascinet in this style. (Northern Italian / Hungarian/Dalmatian?) Clearly it was a desirable "look" in the late 14th-early 15thC. It seemed to be revived in the early 16thC as well. The burgonet on this awesome harness at the Bargello has an hinged visor but is substantially the same shape.


I'd like to make some free fencing celata in this style. Now to find a proper period example instead of relying on artistic representation!



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Arek Przybylok




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great offtopic and great request. I want more photos of this armor. Can you help? It is amazing!
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel, that's exactly why I'm looking--to get Manning to make me one for free sparring (longsword, really) and mounted. Your picture's a start... and the art from Altichero di Zevio was a treat in itself!
Christian G. Cameron

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote


Pastime With Good Company
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.rd20.it/iconografia/Spinello_Areti...Navale.jpg

A huge fresco at the Palazzo Publicco in Sienna, of a naval battle between Venice and Frederick Barbarossa. The painting was executred no later than 1407 by Spinello Aretino.

NB the figure dead center on the page at the "crease" with a spear thrusting down. There's four more, as well wearing the brimmed of visored bascinet that looks so much like a burgonet. A quick review of Aretino's work shows still more.

Christian G. Cameron

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Matthijs Witsenburg




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

May I point out tat the armour posted by Kel and Adam is about a century too late for what Christian is trying to portray?

It is, however an exceedingly cool suit. One of those things that makes me consider changing period. Happy
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think he was just pointing out that the art seems to show a movable brim and this helmet not only had one but something of the bowl shape. I never used to look at art--just surviving examples.... and now that I do, I can find late 14th c. kettles, sallets, barbutes, and so many variations on the bascinet... to the extent that in some weird way, everything is everything (I can see kettles that are almost sallets, and bascinets that are almost burgonets, and another bascinet shape that is almost a barbute or even a Corinthian, while yet another helmet blurs any distinction between the "sallet" and the "bascinet".

Clearly, our surviving examples are just a tiny piece of what there was in 1390.

That's a platitude. sorry!

Christian G. Cameron

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Mackenzie Cosens




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two Late 14 Century Italian helmets: These look real to me.

Image representing romans It is 14C and I think it is Italian. Possibly to make the wearer more antique/Roman. May not be real.



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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Al Antica" styling is common enough in votive art, that's true. Unfortunately we find very similar helmets and costumes in secular art as well. The Northern Italians made a lot of armour that never caught on elsewhere nor survived into the 20thC due to loss, destruction, recycling or unscrupulous Victorian armour dealers who modified pieces to conform to "desirable" styles. Don't write it off just because you can't find a similar item in a collection today.

And you might be interested to know that one of the leading lights of armour research and modern jousting revival is currently sporting 'al Antica" armour on the field. It was very fashionable in the late 15thC apparently. Look for the latest images of Toby Capwell's harness. Cool
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is interesting how the current 'fashion' in world jousting is Italian, which is good for me, as that is my area of interest in the 14th/15thC.
I wonder how long until it turns to Gothic and everyone 'has' to change their kits? Laughing Out Loud

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N Cioran




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2011 3:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funny you should say that Kel, I'm working on finally completing that All'Antica harness I talked about all those years ago.

Have fun!
Cole
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Matthijs Witsenburg




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://picasaweb.google.com/smokedim/Bascinet...0985867858
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Matthijs. That's EXACTLY what I wanted, and bless you. Now off to Craig at Manning Imperial. I'll show the results!
Christian G. Cameron

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Chris,

I'll save you the trouble. Its just an old bascinet with a brim fitted to it. I've got a couple bascinet shells in a box. I could fix you up with one of those next month. Laughing Out Loud

Cheers!

Kel
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Christian G. Cameron




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Kel. but Craig owes me a helmet, and I want some gongs and whistles.
Christian G. Cameron

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome! I've never seen a helmet with gongs and whistles. A mini-cam, feathers, even a stuffed red herring .... but not gongs and whistles. Gotta see that when you get it! Cool Razz
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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote



Found this while looking for a bascinet for a new harness I'm planing and figured id post it here.
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