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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jun 2009

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject: re anactor question about Islamic Daggers         Reply with quote

Hi all!

I find it hard to find daggers or short swords (like a Seax) that were used by Islamic knights in the middle east. As a 15C re anactor of a Mamluk I was wondering if someone could help me with that.

The only short weapons I found were actually very nicely decorated and there is no way I would be fighting with those masterpieces. The Yataghan would be another option although I don't know if a 15C Mamluk would carry such a weapon.

Can someone give me some advice? Information? Or just guid me in right direction?

Kind regards,

Sander
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well for a Yataghan that you can use ( blunted ) there are these by BKS:

http://www.BaltimoreKnife.com/mideastern.htm

Since they seem to accept custom work they might be able to produce a knife for you for reenactment ( blunt or sharpened ) to your specification.

The Yataghans they make vary in sizes and the smaller one might work as a large dagger. Wink Question

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: re anactor question about Islamic Daggers         Reply with quote

Sander Alsters wrote:
The only short weapons I found were actually very nicely decorated and there is no way I would be fighting with those masterpieces. The Yataghan would be another option although I don't know if a 15C Mamluk would carry such a weapon.


Actually, I think a heavily-decorated weapon would not have been out of place on a 15th-century Mamluk. Aside from a short period under Ashraf Barsbay (1422-1438), the 15th century was the middle of a long period of decline and decay in Mamluk military readiness, and one of the symptoms (as was the case in other degenerate militaristic institutions) was the growing preference for pomp and grandeur over actual military practicality. So, unless you're trying to portray a vigorous, idealistic Mamluk who wanted a return to the old ideals--probably one of the soldiers involved in Barsbay's campaigns to reconquer and pacify various territories in order to recapture at least a shadow of the Mamluk sultanate's former glory--you'd have every reason to pile up as much bling as possible on your kit.
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jun 2009

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: Thanks!         Reply with quote

Alright! Thank you both for the information. I,m thinking of changing the time period for my re anactment to end 14c begin 15c. Being a proud Mamluk with old ideas;-)

My other kit will be a 13c one. A battle hardened Mamluk who just kicked some Crusader/Mongol arse!

Problem is, I have alot of information about the swords, armor and bows that were used. Even maces and spears. But almost next to nothing about knives and daggers or short swords. Does anyone have an idea?

Kind regards.
Sander
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks!         Reply with quote

Sander Alsters wrote:
Alright! Thank you both for the information. I,m thinking of changing the time period for my re anactment to end 14c begin 15c. Being a proud Mamluk with old ideas


Ouch. The end of the 14th century is a particularly bad period--a nadir in the Mamluk's military efficiency before Barsbay (briefly) reversed the trend. If you want to portray a seriously competent Mamluk at this time, your character would really be going against the grain--unless that's exactly what you want?

(Hint: Barsbay's reign would be a much better point to pick if you want to portray a latter-day but effective Mamluk.)
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Peter Lyon
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Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sanders, if you want a reasonably detailed but readable introduction to the Mamluks, I can recommend "The Knights of Islam" by James Waterson. At almost 300 pages it covers the Mamluks well, and would help you to narrow your time period according to the ups and downs of the empire.
Still hammering away
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jun 2009

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Mamluks         Reply with quote

Thanx Lafayette C Curtis for pointing that out! I certainly will look into it. Baybars sounds awesome. I admid I'm still in the middle of research and not quite familiar with all the ups and downs.

@ Peter Lyon, Thank you very much for the information. I will try and get me a copy of the book. Came by the title some time ago when I was looking for books of David Nicole about the subject.

Best regards,

Sander
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The Yataghan would be another option although I don't know if a 15C Mamluk would carry such a weapon.


Hello Sander,
The yataghan only ever appears as an infantry weapon, and even then seems to have been used in battle no earlier than the late 17thc. See my notes from Boskovic 2006 and Vvedensky 2003 here, s.v. "Yataghan":
http://forensicfashion.com/1739OttomanSoldier.html

For both these reasons, I think a yataghan would be inappropriate for a mounted 15thc. Mamluk.

Hope that helps! r

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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Posts: 614

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd ask Manouchehr M. He writes books about Middle Eastern and Central Asian weapons.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/profile.php?mod...e&u=71
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Bernard Delor




Location: France
Joined: 19 Nov 2010

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

There are some samples in this discussion : http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17520
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