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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Daggers for armoured combat...         Reply with quote

Hello,

It is to my understanding that the humble dagger played a rather important role when it came to armoured combat, if the two fighters came close enough or either one or both of them was sent tumbling to the ground. However, I don't think I've ever seen a dagger with a handle longer than 4'' (pommel included), which to my estimations would feel a bit small in a gauntlet-clad hand, leading to a less than perfect grip.

I'll add that I have never actually held the kind of dagger that I am theorising about, so I am really just speculating here.

Was there daggers more specifically designed for use in armoured combat or is this whole matter actually a non-issue created by my mind?

Thank you,
Emil Andersson
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The daggers most adapted for full plate armored combats were rondels. See some pictures here - http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=rondel - There is also a myArmoury article on rondels here - http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter von Danzig said:

"Now you should know that almost all parts of armored combat in earnest come at last to dagger fighting and to grappling." (von Danzig fol. 71v)

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for those links, Roger. Nice and educational. Happy

The Rondel produced by Arms & Armor is looking mighty fine. I'll definately be keeping an eye on it for later purchases.

Thanks,
Emil Andersson
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the other hand there is a lot of artwork with knights carrying Baselards. So it must have been in use too.


Eh, and what Hugh said! Cool
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, ballock daggers like this one:



The grip is quite small on this one, but still fits a gauntlet-clad hand. The non-edged blade would have no use as a civilian utility implement.

It seems all the dagger forms were at one time adopted for heavy military use.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Rondel seems to be the most associated with Knights, as the best type of dagger to use against armour, but there is a great variety of blade types some of which are clearly specialized for armour piercing ( maille ) or finding gaps between plates, but there seem to be some smaller blades on Rondels that also have usable edges or simply shorter blades more convenient for use in civilian clothing where the very " pointy " blade would be effective against heavy clothing.

Another point made by Chad is that Ballock daggers often also have blade types as effective and very similar to those typical of Rondels. I also think that one can find the very thrust specialized blades mounted as other kinds of daggers.

So in part the Rondel is a specialized fighting in armour tool, or socially associated to the Knightly class, with a specific aesthetics and very functional design, but other types of knives share the same blade types and are more associated to civilian wear ..... how much of this is just fashion or social class distinctions I am not sure about and just summarizing my impression based on many topics and posts on this site: So read the above as opinion and not proof. Wink

Oh, additionally speculations: Although a Ballock dagger might be able to do the same job in armour the Rondel's guard and pommel disks do seem to have a function protecting the inside of a hand wearing a steel gauntlet and giving a very secure grip almost locked into the hand

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