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Andy Cobb




Location: East Point GA
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Nazi Dagger - any ideas or information?         Reply with quote

I was referred here by a friend on another forum.....

So, the story goes that my Great Uncle took this dagger off of a dead German officer during WWII. I have heard everything from a Captain to a General but I am not really concerned with the validity of the story but I am curious if there are any collectors on here that may be able to give me some information about what it is and as to the value of this thing. I have never seen another one like it and I always look at gun shows etc.

I am not a collector of Nazi stuff but I have had this since I was a kid and have always wondered what it was....


This is it in the sheath - it's about 20" long. The sheath is a little beat up but not too bad.


The handle has an eagle head carved into it (both sides).


Reverse of handle.


This thing is metal and is hanging off a ribbon wrapped around the sheath.


Sheath has the following stamped on the back:
JOHANN FROHLIGH
WIEN XV 1938


The blade is worn on both sides at the end.


Terrible picture but on the blade it says:
EWALD CLEFF
SOLINGER
And above that on the handle it says:
S.O.p. IV 453.


Close up of the ribbon.


Over all length of both.

Anybody have any ideas?

I am not looking to sell it at this time but I am curious if it has any value (other than sentimental).

Thanks.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." – James Madison
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Paul Mullins





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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am positive its a police dress dagger.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And since the sheath is Viennese, it might be Austrian.
-Sean

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not an expert on these but the Nazis produced knives for just about every Government department or approved, by them, social group from the Hitler Youth, to the postal service to garbage collectors all had their official organization daggers and/or uniforms: So, this dagger could be from any of these groups originally but might have ended up in the hands of a front line soldier or officer.

Note is there a groove in the handle rear for the dagger to be used as a bayonets ? Just asking because the handle's general shape and blade type is similar to some bayonets.

If not a bayonet it is still styled like a bayonet handle. ( I don't see a bayonet catch in the pics ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Andy Cobb




Location: East Point GA
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great information. I was always a bit skeptical of the story but it was sort of a family legend I guess. Happy
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." – James Madison
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Andy Cobb




Location: East Point GA
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


Note is there a groove in the handle rear for the dagger to be used as a bayonets ? Just asking because the handle,s general shape and blade type is similar to some bayonets.


No - no groove in the handle.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." – James Madison
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Karl Schlesien





Joined: 15 Sep 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andy, yes this is a police bayonet. The insignia on the antler grip is that of the military polizei. As to which branch of the polizei you would be best to check out this forum, I know you will find it quickly there.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/index.php



The rank is given by the shape and colour combinations of the portapee.

"The small green stripped knots were for the Polizei Seitengewehr - Police Sidearm. The straps were made both of leather or cloth. Larger green stipped knots were for NCO Swords. Smaller all silver knots on police (black/red/silver) straps were for officer wear on bayonets; larger all silver knots were for officer swords."

This is from this forum;

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=149218

It is someplaces to start.

Tschόί!
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Julian Reynolds




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These were usually made from WW1 surplus standard issue (long) bayonet blades that were cut down, chromed and re-hilted. You will notice how the fullers on yours seem to end oddly, as if they should have carried on on a longer blade. Some of these were made using the original handle fittings which still had the fixing groove in the back for attaching to a rifle, but cut and altered to make them no longer serve this purpose, and with all the 'eagle-headed' features engraved (sometimes rather crudely) into the fittings.

Far rarer, are the ones which were purposely made from the start to the right (short) length as a private purchase item by officers.

The cut-down versions (like yours) are not uncommon, but command better prices if they come with all the fittings (original frog and knot, like yours).

As Karl says above, wehrmacht-awards is a good website to start discovering more about these pieces.

Julian
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Markus A




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what is annoying is this term NAZI-this is completly unprofessionel in any terms
this is not an nazi dagger its an DRESS BAJONETT OF GERMAN MILITARY POLICE an american K bar is not an YANKEE DAGGER
sorry but if you want be taken halfways serious in your comments you should not toss such unsuiting terms around.
you can only call an person nazi.if you want or must.NSDAP did chease to exist 1945.so i prefere the term FASCHIST.and from those breed are still lots left.in any country worldwide.
so its highly unprofesionell to write NAZIS did produce......sorry there where companies in germany which was led by an faschist regime called the NSDAP.
an nazi did not produce anything.if you write this you must have the proove taht the single workers producing those where dedicated nazis.or do you say anyway all krauts where nazis........
sorry but i can not stand such stuff without comment
if you want erase this do it
iam used to
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Dmitry Z~G





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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus A wrote:
what is annoying is this term NAZI-this is completly unprofessionel in any terms
this is not an nazi dagger its an DRESS BAJONETT OF GERMAN MILITARY POLICE


How can it NOT be a Nazi dagger, if it has a swastika on it?!
FWIW, NSDAP weren't fascists, they were National-Socialists, i.e. NAZIs.

I am not a collector of these mass-produced trinkets, but to me this is one of the more attractive Dritten Reich pieces. The pommel is reminiscent of the 16th c. vernacular.
.
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Nazi Dagger - any ideas or information?         Reply with quote

Andy Cobb wrote:
[...] I am curious if there are any collectors on here that may be able to give me some information about what it is and as to the value of this thing. I have never seen another one like it and I always look at gun shows etc. [...] Anybody have any ideas? I am not looking to sell it at this time but I am curious if it has any value (other than sentimental). Thanks.



Wink

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Calm down. If you can't be here to calmly help answer questions from people who who know less than you, I ask that you not return. Simple, right?
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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How is it not a nazi dagger? It was produced in response to an order tendered by the nazi/NSDP leadership.
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sure the OP never intended to tar the whole of the German people as Nazis with his title. It's just that, if something has a swastika on it, and it doesn't come from India, it's probably fairly accurate to describe it as a Nazi object, regardless of whether its owner was deeply committed to Nazi ideology or was simply a pawn of the German political and military system.

I can understand why modern Germans would be very alarmed by the word Nazi; the country has gone to great lengths to disown that part of its history. Nazi related stuff is banned in Germany.

We in America, on the other hand, have become pretty much obsessed with Nazis in our popular culture, to the point where they seem more like fictional stock villains than a real political ideology that actually existed. The Nazi is our go-to guy for any situation requiring a villain from history, and people also tend to throw the word around a lot very casually in reference to things they don't like.

[/off topic]

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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam D. Kent-Isaac wrote:
I am sure the OP never intended to tar the whole of the German people as Nazis with his title. It's just that, if something has a swastika on it, and it doesn't come from India, it's probably fairly accurate to describe it as a Nazi object, regardless of whether its owner was deeply committed to Nazi ideology or was simply a pawn of the German political and military system.
[/off topic]


I apologise for continuing the off-topicness of this offtopic reply. Happy

By this logic, I presume that Canadian hockey teams (the Windsor Swastikas, and Edmondton Sawastikas, two teams), the entire highway system of the state of Arizona (standard route markers in the 1920's were a black arrow with a white sawastika), the 45th Infantry Division of the United States Army (from its founding through to 1939), the memorial tomb of President James A. Garfield (decorated with sawastika tiling), the Finnish Airforce (blue sawastika on a white circle), the city of Glendale, California (several hundred iron lamp-posts with sawastikas carved in them) and even the Boy Scouts movement were "Nazis" ?

Because each of those groups, organisations or buildings are just some of the many hundreds or thousands of structures in the western world - yet alone the countless thousands in india or other hindu nations - which have or had sawastikas in thier iconography.

Ignorance of the vast and wide-ranging popularity of the symbol throughout the western world from the end of the 19th century through into the mid-1930's is just one element of the mindless stereotyping of "all germans are nazis", that anything bearing a sawastika is "nazi" - an ignorance which causes no end of anger and upset to hindus I know.

Hitler's use of the symbol was simply because it was fashionable, and it has poisoned the innumerable other applications of a symbol of health, purity and good fortune of a faith far older than nazism.
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was aware the Swastika had a very old history in India but never had any idea that it was so widely used in the West. Interesting.
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Julian Reynolds




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The swastika is, in fact, a symbol that is indigenous to the Pueblo and Navajo Native Americans (as well as its wider context in ancient Greece, Scandinavia and India). The symbol is known as 'nohokos' and represents wishes of well being or good blessings and was picked up by the white settlers as a symbol of good luck, to adorn everything from saddles, chaps, blankets, spurs, holsters, poker chips etc. etc., until the 1940s when it (not surprisingly) disappeared from American popular culture.

The National Socialists used a symbol that was already well entrenched in many, many cultures.
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam D. Kent-Isaac wrote:
I was aware the Swastika had a very old history in India but never had any idea that it was so widely used in the West. Interesting.


(further apologies for the continued offtopic diversion...)

it was pretty widespread, throughout the US and europe alike, and was particularly popular from the 1870's and the discovery of troy, through to about 1922 when it was somewhat eclipsed by the egyptmania of the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb, but the slightly less fashionable interest remained for a good 16-17 years after that.

it was incredibly widely used, on everything from banks to postcards, town fetes to city emblems, village societies to all manner of clubs and organisations. Hitler's only real achievement, it could be argued, was that he managed to do a pretty good graphic design job on the background of it, to create such an iconic symbol to have corrupted so many centuries of benign use, and implanted it into the consciousness of the world in an entirely different manner...
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Andy Cobb




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the information on the dagger, the enlightening lesson on the proper use of the word Nazi WTF?! and the riveting history of the use of the swastika in modern culture Confused......but mostly, thanks for the information on the dagger Cool that information is much appreciated.
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." – James Madison
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Karl Schlesien





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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andy you are most welcome. It is to bad that the old politics have to be brought back.

Have a look at these links, They give you some ideas what others are charging for theirs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GNoSbVLsWw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0HTVPNIS7Q&feature=fvw


http://www.snyderstreasures.com/pages/germanbayonets.htm
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