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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Legacy Arms Gen2 or Valiant armoury?         Reply with quote

I recently bought a Gen2 Lucerne from KOA, but sadly the sword turned out to be badly tempered. While gently flexing the blade it took a set. I informed KOA about this and they generously offered the price of the defective sword as a credit for a new one, even if I choose another brand. Looks like their reputation for good service is true.

So now I am searching a new sword. KOA offered the Gen2 Black Prince, but right now my trust in that brand is a bit low. Anyway, how often swords from this factory turn out to be defective? The Valiant Armoury Practical longsword is one of those I have in mind, also their Atrim Custom Long Sword allthough it is slighly more expensive with the same blade but nicer hilt.

What I need is a good sword for cutting practise, nothing fancy. The style of the Valiants is maybe historically slighly earlier than the Fiore style I study? Would that affect anything? I suppose the Valiants might be better for cutting, Black Prince could be more of a thrusting sword with some cutting ability?
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Zach Luna




Location: Los Angeles
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Valiant Armoury Practical Longsword variants are great budget blades for cutting practice and are fairly nimble as well. The grip might be a little short for Fiore, but not unmanageable at all. Their quality of the edge out of the box and cutting ability are really unmatched at that pricepoint.


Though, if handling takes priority over cutting and you wanted a sword more appropriate in dimensions and mass distribution for later-period longsword techniques, I'd sidestep the Legacy Arms/Generation 2 offerings completely and get a Hanwei Tinker Longsword:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...word%0D%0A

It's a bit plain looking but a very good sword for its ridiculously low current price. The general consensus seems to be that it's great for longsword techniques, though out of the box it's cutting ability is not ideal. If you are willing to put in some work on the edge, however, they can make very capable cutters as well.



Hope that helps.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well I have a Dordogne, and Henry V and the short Knight's Riding Sword made by Generation2 and they seem O.K. to me.

I also did some cutting with the Dordogne a few years back and hitting a nail only caused the normal expected damage to the blade that was easy enough to fix with a little sharpening leaving only a small area of damage to the edge that one can't even see but I can feel if I run a thumbnail on the edge.

No way close to destructive testing but it seemed to survive use well.

Now I can see that Generation2 swords occasionally have a " lemon " with bad heat treat and you might hesitate to take a chance on another one but since Kult of Athena would replace even a second bad sword without argument you could risk it I think.

Ryan at KoA might also be willing to flex test the one sent to you as a replacement to at least see if there are no obvious problems with it.

Anyway I have 3 for 3 good swords from Generation2 but I don't know what their percentages of bad swords are but the maker also does his best to tract down and fix these problem when they occur and with a distributor like KoA there is no risk involved except maybe the time waiting for a replacement sword which can become frustrating if a bad sword is followed by another bad sword.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well my gen 2 black price has held up to some pretty heavy abuse as it got banged into sword stands left and right (I use to us it as my newbie intro sword) .

That said, if your doing fiore you may wanna look at the H/T bastard sword or longsword. Those work wonders for fiore style combat and even the EMSH sword lends itself well to many of fiores techniques (I am told) .
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The H/T longsword certainly is plain, but I could do a new cord-wrap handle. Not much can be done to metal parts except polishing. I could try bluing the hilt parts with a gas torch, since the sword can be taken apart easily. Wonder if the hilt parts are stainless, so they can not be blued?

The handles in Valiant swords are a bit short. Gen 2:s are a bit longer, but not much. I certainly would like to use correct technique. I did some strikes with the Lucerne and found the handle a bit short but manageable.

Problem is that the money is already in and since I live in Europe, the waiting time is long and shipping is expensive. So the options in sub 300 dollar range are a bit limited, if I want a sword that would fit Fiore.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hilt components can be blued. I did it in my BBQ grill tho as the gas torch just takes too long. And I can make dinner afterwards.
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
The hilt components can be blued. I did it in my BBQ grill tho as the gas torch just takes too long. And I can make dinner afterwards.

Can you post a picture of the sword or a link? If the general concensus is that the durability and handling of the HT longsword is good that might solve my problem. I have a couple of HT single hand blades, tempering was good in both allthough a bit on the soft side. The notching on the training blade might also be the result of the of narrow edge for a blunt sword.

I just hope that the threaded bolt on the tang is not a weak spot.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 5:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:

Problem is that the money is already in and since I live in Europe, the waiting time is long and shipping is expensive. So the options in sub 300 dollar range are a bit limited, if I want a sword that would fit Fiore.


Yes that is more of a problem than for a client inside the U.S.A. since sending stuff back and forth until one gets a good replacement sword from the first maker or a different sword from another maker can be long tedious and expensive ( Shipping and Customs clearance paperwork to be sure as to not get taxed repeatedly ! Sad ).

Even to Canada from the U.S.A. I really don't enjoy sending things back so that even with the great customer service by Kult of Athena it's still something I try to avoid.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Neil Gagel




Location: Oklahoma City
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I purchased 3 H/T line swords from KoA - a Longsword, a Great Sword of War and an Early Medieval Single Hand Sword (in that order) and they have been getting progressively better as far as the edges are concerned. The Longsword had a fairly steep secondary bevel that took a long time to get ground out. The GSOW came papercutting sharp, but still with a slight secondary bevel and the EMSHS came with a perfect appleseed bevel damn near sharp enough to shave with. I'm not sure if I just really lucked out with that last one or if they've been making improvements to the line that took a while to filter through. I'm tempted to order a replacement blade for the Longsword to see if it gets here in the same condition as my original purchase or if it's closer to the newer swords.
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a sharp early medieval single hand blade, that I bought for a project. It could have been sharper, but it is not blunt. So it is possible that there are significant variations in edge quality.

Oh well, decisions...Maybe I should just get the H/T longsword and get it over with Happy I think I will ask KOA to touch up the blade to make it really sharp AND to check the temper before they send it. Of course that leaves me with some funds to spend in a, for exmple, a war hammer Big Grin Then I can take the sword to a guy I know who polishes swords for our club (he did a very good job on my Pavel Moc training sword) and see what he gets out of the H/T. Meanwhile I can customise the handle. I have some nice brown leather after my dear leather jacket met on accidental death. Maybe I should blue the guard and pommel.

With that combination I should have a serviceable sharp longsword, that fits Fiore techniques and I can start murdering bottles and tatami rols.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
P. Cha wrote:
The hilt components can be blued. I did it in my BBQ grill tho as the gas torch just takes too long. And I can make dinner afterwards.

Can you post a picture of the sword or a link? If the general concensus is that the durability and handling of the HT longsword is good that might solve my problem. I have a couple of HT single hand blades, tempering was good in both allthough a bit on the soft side. The notching on the training blade might also be the result of the of narrow edge for a blunt sword.

I just hope that the threaded bolt on the tang is not a weak spot.


Okay so that is the hilt I hot blued before using my BBQ grill to make some tri-tip. I replaced the handle as well with wenge wood. The metal bits could use some polishing I admit, but it's my new newbie sword (the old one was the gen 2 Wink ) so I'm less worried about that. I have to re-blue it once in a while from nicks from the sword getting dropped anyways :P .

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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:


Okay so that is the hilt I hot blued before using my BBQ grill to make some tri-tip.


Cool! I might try that too.

By the way, last evening I used my H/T single hand blunt for some drilling. Afterwards I ran my finger down the blade to check for damage (stupid!) and cut my finger. Looks like the blunt edge is too thin and has to be filed/rounded. Luckily the broad blade has enough material to reshape.

I have e-mailed KOA about my choise. I sure hope that some of the quality issues conserning H/T longswords have been taken care of. Of course, a sharp sword does not get similar damage as a training blunt. The threaded tang is not velded on, which is a bonus.

I asked Ryan to check the temper and sharpness. Wish me luck...
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
P. Cha wrote:


Okay so that is the hilt I hot blued before using my BBQ grill to make some tri-tip.


Cool! I might try that too.



Note heat bluing the hilt furniture is a very " cool " idea " but I would only do it to the dismounted pieces and not with the blade still there as that would damage the heat treat.

I assume that you guys already knew this and only mentioning it for others who might be tempted to put the whole mounted sword on the BBQ grill. Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
P. Cha wrote:


Okay so that is the hilt I hot blued before using my BBQ grill to make some tri-tip.


Cool! I might try that too.



Note heat bluing the hilt furniture is a very " cool " idea " but I would only do it to the dismounted pieces and not with the blade still there as that would damage the heat treat.

I assume that you guys already knew this and only mentioning it for others who might be tempted to put the whole mounted sword on the BBQ grill. Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool


Eek! I would never have thought that!! You are right, also the smell of burning leather on the handle could be quite annoying Laughing Out Loud
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
P. Cha wrote:


Okay so that is the hilt I hot blued before using my BBQ grill to make some tri-tip.


Cool! I might try that too.



Note heat bluing the hilt furniture is a very " cool " idea " but I would only do it to the dismounted pieces and not with the blade still there as that would damage the heat treat.

I assume that you guys already knew this and only mentioning it for others who might be tempted to put the whole mounted sword on the BBQ grill. Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool


Umm yeah...the dismounted parts is a pretty important step I do admit Laughing Out Loud . I would also say get some good tongs as well...otherwise your just asking to get burned.

Oh Paul if your planning on doing this, I suggest oil quenching (I used old corn oil from my fryer) and not water.
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Harry J. Fletcher




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject: Gen 2 Poor Quality         Reply with quote

I am sorry to hear about someone else buying a Gen 2 and getting a poor quality sword. I raised the issue in the Sword Buyers Guide forum after reading posts in Sword Buyer's Guide and being new I did not realize that Clyde Hollis was the Sacred Cow on that site. I was called everything from a Christ Killer to a pediphille and worst. Although not thrown out of the forum as some members say I quit of my own volition. Sadly hard feelings remain to this day. I stated that a manufacturer who consistently delivers poorly tempered swords should be forced out of business by consumers refusing to buy his products. Sadly this view was not supported by Sword Buyers Guide. Paul Southern and I have mended the fences and I doubt whether any of the firestorm was his fault but some of the people there should have been reigned in. Mr. Hollis is still not using any form of quality control so consumer beware.

I like to Kult of Athena and have bought a couple of swords from them as they do have good reputation for low prices and customer service. If anyone gets a defective sword from them they will replace it or give credit for another.

To Study The Edge of History
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Gen 2 Poor Quality         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
I am sorry to hear about someone else buying a Gen 2 and getting a poor quality sword. I raised the issue in the Sword Buyers Guide forum after reading posts in Sword Buyer's Guide and being new I did not realize that Clyde Hollis was the Sacred Cow on that site. I was called everything from a Christ Killer to a pediphille and worst. Although not thrown out of the forum as some members say I quit of my own volition. Sadly hard feelings remain to this day. I stated that a manufacturer who consistently delivers poorly tempered swords should be forced out of business by consumers refusing to buy his products. Sadly this view was not supported by Sword Buyers Guide. Paul Southern and I have mended the fences and I doubt whether any of the firestorm was his fault but some of the people there should have been reigned in. Mr. Hollis is still not using any form of quality control so consumer beware.


Well, that explains, allthough in this thread Jean Thibodeau had been satisfied with the quality of Gen2 swords. I know a swordsmith who promised to do what he can with the Lucerne sword. Even if the blade is ruined I have the fittings to use in some project.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Gen 2 Poor Quality         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
I am sorry to hear about someone else buying a Gen 2 and getting a poor quality sword. I raised the issue in the Sword Buyers Guide forum after reading posts in Sword Buyer's Guide and being new I did not realize that Clyde Hollis was the Sacred Cow on that site. I was called everything from a Christ Killer to a pediphille and worst. Although not thrown out of the forum as some members say I quit of my own volition. Sadly hard feelings remain to this day. I stated that a manufacturer who consistently delivers poorly tempered swords should be forced out of business by consumers refusing to buy his products. Sadly this view was not supported by Sword Buyers Guide. Paul Southern and I have mended the fences and I doubt whether any of the firestorm was his fault but some of the people there should have been reigned in. Mr. Hollis is still not using any form of quality control so consumer beware.


I vaguely remember the firestorm at the SBG...but you have to realize that not only Jean, but me and even reviewers for this site got perfectly fine gen 2 swords. Yeah lemons happen...even batches of lemon happen. I know that Clyde had a batch of lucernes and black prince that were bad a while back due to annealing the steel in the final grind, but I wouldn't write of gen 2 entirely because of what happened a long time ago and was fixed. Course it's kinda hard to recommend gen 2 swords when the VA atrims line and hanwei tinker lines are around. I'm kinda curious to see which companies step up to the plate to contend with those in the budget category.
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have owned a couple Gen2 swords. I was happy with the Knightly Riding Sword, but unhappy with the Henry V. I have also owned many Valiant products - which I have been very happy with. All in all, I would recommend the Valiant 303S (Type XII) or 304S (Type XIIa). They are lighter, have a better distal taper, edge, leather quality, quality control, and more on par with the historical counterparts they are indicative of. Happy
J.E. Sarge
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I could only speak of my personal experience about the specific swords I bought that seem to be well heat treated, could take some moderate abuse and could also take a very sharp edge.

The " lemons " or batches of lemons factor is certainly a worry and I feel bad for Clyde that seems an O.K. guy who listened and does a great deal to try to fix the quality control issues when they crop up from time to time.

Sound a bit excessive for " fans " of a maker to get abusive if someone brings up a legitimate problem and I doubt that Clyde would be happy with such a bad attitude as his attitude has been to correct problems and satisfy buyers and not hide problems when they show up.

Lets say that 1% to 5% of the swords where badly heat treated ( Just for arguments sake I have no idea what the percentages are ) or had other issues, if one buys from a dealer like Kult of Athena one can return any lemons and get it replaced with a good example of the same sword, get their money back or choose an alternate sword, the risks of getting a lemon are counterbalanced by the fact that the " GOOD " Generation2 swords seem very good and durable to me.

They are also not expensive and if one does a little DIY work on them their look can be improved 200% by recovering the handles and or bluing or antiquing the hilt furniture.

I'm sure it's no fun at all for a maker who cares about making good swords when something goes wrong but it's better for him to find out about it from legitimate complaint as he then can go back to his factory and get the problems fixed.

The Generation2 swords are hand forged and I assume that each can vary in quality to some degree ( small variations in basically good swords ) that is acceptable and the occasional bad batch: A lot of the early problem have been fixed so I would guess that the lemons are rarer than with some early batches that had problems.

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