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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 5:12 pm    Post subject: Naval Dirks         Reply with quote

I am looking for pictures of Naval Dirks particularly ones with D-guards and straight blades.
Any help would appreciated.

Thanks,
Ben

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is one of the best looking British Naval dirks that I have come across - see this thread over at SFI from a few years ago - http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...rk+british -

16 inch blade, dating from around 1790, just possibly a modern copy.



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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To my best knowledge, straight-bladed naval dirks do not go usualy with D-guards. It might has been a very rare combination, as most straight naval dirks I've seen have a short cross or 'S' guard. Those with a D-guard tend to have a very curved blade (they look like a miniature saber).
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a naval dirk with a D guard, but with a curved blade


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Dmitry Z~G





Joined: 22 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Here is a naval dirk with a D guard, but with a curved blade


I am an avid naval dirk collector [the massive fighting dirk on the first pictures in this thread belongs to me, and was made by Knubley of London, ca.1795].
The curved thing above is not a naval dirk. It's a composite of a poor imitation of a Russian dragoon model shashka hilt with a curved blade, perhaps made in the Middle East in the not so distant past.

Regarding the d-guard naval dirks with a straight blade (or curved blade, for that matter}, they don't exist, imho. I've seen a couple of pieces with a stirrup hilts and curved blades that were ascribed to Spanish naval officers, but I was not convinced. Generally speaking, naval dirks did not have a closed loop knuckle bows. The example by Knubley, pictured above is a rare exception, and it doesn't have a D-guard.

To answer the topic-starter's question, the closest you will get is a M1917 US trench-fighting knife, pictured below.

Just my $0.02


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Sa'ar Nudel




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a picked example of a Confederate D-guard Bowie will do better.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the help. I guess I'll have to look at small swords or hangers for hilt designs then.
Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Dmitry Z~G





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What exactly are you looking for?
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
Thanks for the help. I guess I'll have to look at small swords or hangers for hilt designs then.


Get a copy of George C. Neumann's Swords and Blades of the American Revolution It has many photos of original hangers and smallswords (and lots of other blade weapons).
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am making a long naval style dirk (18" straight blade, deep fuller double edged tip) and would like to make it as authentic as possible with a D or shell guard. I think I may opt for a cuttoe (spelling as I saw some hunting swords/cuttoes that would fit the bill nicely.

I have look at the at book in that past for other projects and have it on request at the library, thanks for the reminder.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking of cuttoes, I really like this one, 31" overall, dating from 1736. Also, there are a lot of good looking cuttoes in Neumann's book


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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ben

What you seem to be describing would fit for cuttoe and there is a nice online book to thumb through
http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/intro.html

More a straight hanger/hunting/cuttoe type of thing mebbe.

Cheers

GC
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another online resource is Hermann Historica. Look at the recent auctions sections - http://www.hermann-historica.de/gb/index_alte_auktionen.htm - see the hunting hangers and sabers section Auctions 48 to 59.


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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The National Maritime Museum (UK) has some great examples of dirks and hangers in their online collections:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/inde...gedweapons

What time period are you going for?
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan, I looked in that Maritime Museum collection and came up with a D-Guard dirk, though an odd one - USA, 1862, with a 14.5 inch blade. It looks like someone combined a dirk blade with a saber hilt.


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Dmitry Z~G





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is not a naval dirk. It's 'something' that's good enough for ebay, but not for the NMM.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dmitry Z~G wrote:
This is not a naval dirk. It's 'something' that's good enough for ebay, but not for the NMM.


Dmitry, are you saying this is a modern forgery? I'm a little confused, because I found this item at the NMM website - http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=WPN1193 - Are you saying that all 68 dirks listed there are not originals, but are modern copies - or just that one?
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Dmitry Z~G





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Are you saying that all 68 dirks listed there are not originals, but are modern copies - or just that one?


That made me chuckle. Yes, they're all fake, and I wouldn't mind having most of those fakes in my collection.

Regarding the 'dirk' in question, I saw it before, of course. It's not a forgery, since it doesn't replicate any historical piece. It's a kinder sabel, i.e. a child's toy.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I persist (perhaps wrongheadedly) in thinking that this might be some junior Union Naval officer's folly, putting together two things that don't really belong with each other. However, in another thread, Jonathan Hopkins praises you as a weapons expert, so maybe I should defer to your knowledge. If the U.K. National Maritime Museum mistakenly lists this item as a Naval Dirk made in 1862, I think you should contact them and tell them that it is a modern(?) child's toy.
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Oct, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Q: What is the difference between a naval dirk and a child's toy?
A: It depends on the age of the midshipman!

Or, more seriously, to what extent are the various child's swords military equipment for children? (Or at least for those young soldiers/sailors/etc who we would consider children today.)

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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