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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: 1550-1600 English Dagger         Reply with quote

Hi,
I need an english dagger for a pikeman 1550-1600... I aesthetically really like the A&A Saxon Parrying Dagger, would this be appropriate? I'd probably have them add a wire-wrapped grip... If not what would be better? I'm looking to spend around $300... and I'd like it to sort-of match my A&A Munich Guard sword. The nice thing about A&A is that I could pay extra and get them to make it look more Town Guardish.
Thnx
Z

PS period pictures with daggers in this era would also be awesome to see!


Last edited by Zach Gordon on Fri 01 Oct, 2010 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this is the saxon parrying dagger: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg070.html

my other thought is the musketeer dagger: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg134.html but I don't like it as much

Otherwise full A&A custom...
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you talked to Craig? I bet he would have an accurate answer for you.
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

English pike of that period: http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...60_jpg.htm
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the pic!

I figured I'd talk to the guys at A&A about it at some point... I was just trying to get a little knowledge about what I wanted beforehand
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To clarify one fact... is the short guard on the Saxon dagger appropriate for 16th century English?
Thnx
Z
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I looked at the Saxon dagger you linked to on the A & A site and the caption under the picture states "1560-70 german". Weapons were traded between continental Europe and England as well as other goods so I suppose- I don't know- that a dagger similar to this could be carried by an English Pikeman. You asked if the style of the guard would be appropriate for the 16thc so I found this link to his Kursachsen dagger while browsing Vladimir Cervenka's website http://www.sword.cz/daggers.htm and the description puts it in your time frame. BTW, his wait time is about 3 months now (as of a month ago). At this point I'd recommend sending Craig an email to request some data about his design. It is a great looking dagger.
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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David Evans




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Every single reference to English troops being impressed for service from about 1560 to 1610 refer to a sword and dagger when describing the supplied arms. The sword is pretty much always "Close hilted" , "basket hilted", or "Irish Hilt". The blade itself is refered to as a "Turkie Blade"

The dagger is barely mentioned, other than they have one. Sir John Smythe describes his perfect dagger in 1595 in his book " Instructions and orders mylitarie. Requisite for all Chieftaines, Captaines, and higher and lower men of charge, and officers to understand, knowe, and observe." In there he suggests that daggers should be about 10" long with simple cross guards.

Given a choice, I'd pick a simple version of the Elizabethan dagger http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg166.html

Be careful with John Derricke's Images of Ireland. They're a bit fanciful. Try the Lant Roll at http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Main_Page Plates 24 onwards http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Plate_24 show the London Trained Band in 1586 matching behind Sir Phillip Sydney's coffin. Plate 27 onwards show the halberdiers and pike of the LTB http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Plate_27

They're wearing their own best clothing, whilst the shot are wearing black cassocks made for the funeral but it gives you an idea of the look. The helmet prefered is mostly the burgonet at this time, although not always worn. The rest of the armour, pauldrons, vambraces and tasses was frequently abandoned and thrown away.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Evenin Guys         Reply with quote

Hi Zach

I think the suggestions so far would work pretty well. Depends on the status and equipment of the fellow you are portraying. The Saxon with a wire grip would be good as well as the Musketeer, though probably skip the bluing to match the sword.

We could alter the pommel to match closer to the sword as well for a small fee.

Best
Craig
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Evenin Guys         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
Hi Zach

I think the suggestions so far would work pretty well. Depends on the status and equipment of the fellow you are portraying. The Saxon with a wire grip would be good as well as the Musketeer, though probably skip the bluing to match the sword.

We could alter the pommel to match closer to the sword as well for a small fee.

Best
Craig


I have the Saxon parrying dagger and I like it and like it says on the A & A page information about the dagger the smaller compact guard can be an advantage if one is already cluttered up with rapier, powder horn and other musket gear as well as the musket itself.

The dagger with compact guard can also be more discretely or secretly carried as a backup weapon when off duty in civilian clothes: A second hidden dagger could at times be useful although in period one might want or need to appear armed as being totally unarmed would attract more attention than being armed i.e. why is this guy wandering around without even a knife ? So one might have a large guard dagger clearly in view and a second hidden one just in case ......

Or maybe I'm just overworking my imagination due to one too many " assassins Topic thread " read here before. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud

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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice guys.
One more question... How much should the sword and dagger match? All like the recreations of sets I've seen (Museum Replicas, A&A, Cas/Hanwei, Vladamir Cervanka, etc.) the parrying dagger and sword match. But I've also heard they weren't supposed to. I would think like the grips should probably match, but what about the other parts? Mr. Johnson mentioned making the pommels closer to each other...
Thnx
Z
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David Evans




Location: Rotherham, West Riding
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a bog standard impressed pleb, armed, armoured and clothed at the cheapest rate possible. Unlikely. The Contractor, or Justice of the Peace isn't going to be too fussed about matching sword and dagger. Since you should be carrying a close hilt, Irish hilt or basket hilt sword then it's even less of a interest to your supplier....
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
To update... I bought one via a forumite on armour archive. It was a used A&A Musketeer with a wire grip. I picked it because it cost less then half the price of a new one. Maybe at some point I'll add another.

I'm still interested in any comments, I'm becoming a bit obsessed over the past few days. Any info about the matching of sets, Saxon daggers in England, etc. Also I love like medieval oil paintings (they are oil right?) and such... the more images of daggers (or just plain 16th century english pike&shotte) the better.

Thnx
Z
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