Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. This site requires ongoing funding and your donations are crucial to our future.
Last 10 Donors: Neil Eddiford, Chad Arnow, Jean Thibodeau, Robert Morgan, Adam Rose, Jerry Otahal, Michael P. Smith, Mikko Kuusirati, Eric Bergeron, Daniel Staberg (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > viking sword?!?! or later what type of cross? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:09 am    Post subject: viking sword?!?! or later what type of cross?         Reply with quote

Hi All interested,

herewith a sword with questions,Finding place is Norffolk in the UK.

organic material of the of the scabbard , wood and leather, hairy side inside (both hard as stone) remain adhered at the tang and the blade. edges run parallel to the point. spatulatepoint had reduced during cleaning.
can any body place/date this sword or know a similar?
the type of pommel is also not known to me
what kind of cross has been used on this type ?

ttl length 90cm ,blade 77, tang 10cm, pommel 60mmx37mm , blade width 53mm.

looking forward to the comments.
thanks+regards



 Attachment: 215.27 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 208.29 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 208.47 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 204.5 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 220.13 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

pommel has the shape of a cross when seen in the plan of the blade.


 Attachment: 33.68 KB
photo.JPG


 Attachment: 170.69 KB
P1020221.JPG


 Attachment: 178.93 KB
P1020224.JPG


 Attachment: 143.32 KB
P1020225.JPG


 Attachment: 147.83 KB
P1020222.JPG

View user's profile Send private message
Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am fairly certain that pommel is not of characteristic type for a viking period sword.
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The pommel looks a bit like an unusual variation of a scent stopper pommel (Type T here if you've never heard the the term before: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_oakeshott3.html) but to my knowledge, it is unique. This type of cross is known as the Cross Pattee. In the Middle Ages, it was sometimes associated with the Crusading orders, such as the Teutonic knights and perhaps the Knights Templar, though neither group used it consistently. The blade length is more consistent with weapons between the 8th to 10th centuries than later on, and it looks to be, as best as I can tell, an Oakshott Type X, and perhaps a Geibig Type 2, 3, or 4.

It's a very unusual sword, to say the least. Too bad the guard is missing; that might help a little bit in dating it.
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 1:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting!

I have never seen anything like it.
from the shape of the pommel, I would not think it is from the viking period. If it is earlier, it may be quite a bit earlier. Possible roman times. It would still be very unique and quite unlike anything else I´ve seen. There are a few rather odd swords from the late roman times, and that is why I dare suggest a slim possibility that another sword like this maybe, possibly, perhaps could have been made in late roman times.

The fleece or hide lined scabbard hints at an early dating. I am not aware about this being used in high or late medieval times. Otherwise I would have perhaps guessed at a late medieval dating.

These are just speculations, me thinking aloud. A very interesting find. I wonder if the blade might be pattern welded?
Now this sword is lodged in my mind like a small stone in my shoe.

Thank you for posting. I hope some one has seen something similar, or am able to provide some clue.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could be some kind of Katzbalger, with the handguard missing? They sometimes had pommels roughly that shape...
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Craig,
thanks for your reply.
the pommel outline looks like a Type T but a flat scent stopper in combination with a Oakeshot typeX/group 1 blade is rather unusual. Scent stoppers are mainly combined with stabbing blades Type xvI on-wards.

Hi Peter,
thank you for your reply , I am also confused and can not place this sword at all.
my first impression was that the pommel can be some kind of transition between a Wheeler type II and a Basil nut.
as there is no clearly defined fuller I presume that the blade is or is before the oakeshot type X. the sword looks very aesthetic with a short bar as a cross, (I tried with a piece of black carton.)
It looks that there is some pattern welding but very difficult to see because there is organic material adherent to the blade

Hi Elling,
I don't think it is a Katzbalger because the shoulder of the blade was fitted into the cross, you can see the trace
at the blade. Most (all) of the katzbalgers the blade shoulder rests on the guard.
however I received an opinion that it could be a 16th shortsword, however I think the chance it, is is very small.

looking forward to any suggestion.
View user's profile Send private message
Owen Fentimen




Location: Arras, France
Joined: 21 Jan 2010

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi !

Very interesting thread!
Is there any trace of a fuller of some kind?
The pommel is a one-off I think - difficult to place within any typology. The "croix pattée" symbol must be significant. Crosses were used as symbols before Christianity spread through Europe, but as far as I know the "croix pattée" is an exclusively Catholic symbol appearing around the XI th century...

The help of a cross-expert is needed !

However, maybe this is a medieval pommel fitted to an older blade? This one's going to be a guaranteed brain-teaser !


Cheers !

O.Fentimen
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,235

PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the pommel wasn't made with an intention for it to look like cross pattee from above. It does look a bit like it but I don't think that the smith thought of that shape as of cross pattee shape. Btw, it would be interesting to see the x-ray of the blade for the construction.
View user's profile Send private message
Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thats an italian variant of the katzbalger around 1530.the pommel is typic.look at the book
GRIFFWAFFEN IM SCHWEIZER LANDESMUSEUM BAND 1and you will find severall dozends of it.it had an single knucklebow and eightshaped crossguard.
its never anything else.
View user's profile Send private message
R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But if we look at the photo in this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20948 , even though the picture doesn't show it clearly, I think the pommel on the sword to the left has a very similar shape. Maybe it's Moravian from the early middle ages?
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
from the shape of the pommel, I would not think it is from the viking period. If it is earlier, it may be quite a bit earlier. Possible roman times. It would still be very unique and quite unlike anything else I´ve seen. There are a few rather odd swords from the late roman times, and that is why I dare suggest a slim possibility that another sword like this maybe, possibly, perhaps could have been made in late roman times.


Hi Peter, sorry for hijacking the thread, but I'm really interesting in learning more about Roman swords with solid iron pommels. I was under the impression that Roman swords generally had organic hilts, if anything, decorated with metal. I don't think I've ever seen a solid iron pommel before the Carolingian age.

Back to topic, the sword also makes me think "Katzbalger" but then the issue with the blade being fitted inside the guard is indeed a bit strange, as you say. I'm not an expert on Katzbalgers, so I'm not really qualified to comment on this anyway.

The Cross Pattee, if this is indeed the shape intended by the maker (which I doubt), was already popular in Byzantium from the 6th C. or so. The one attached is supposedly from c. 600AD. But in general religious symbols are limited to decoration rather than determining the shape of pommels...



 Attachment: 110.82 KB
picture1.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R D Moore wrote:
But if we look at the photo in this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20948 , even though the picture doesn't show it clearly, I think the pommel on the sword to the left has a very similar shape. Maybe it's Moravian from the early middle ages?


I don't see it. The closest sword looks like it has some form of Brazil nut pommel, the next closest also like a Brazil nut, or perhaps a tea-cosy, and the far one looks like has some form of Viking pommel, or perhaps a variation on the Brazil nut shape. None of them appear to have the somewhat scent-stopperish shape of the pommel shown here.
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cornelis, please correct me if I'm seeing or interpreting this photograph improperly.


 Attachment: 33.68 KB
photo.JPG
Original Photograph

 Attachment: 19.72 KB
photo-modified.JPG
With lines drawn in

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

No you are right of course. Solid iron pommels on Roman swords are out of the norm. The reason I even bring p roman (or late roman) sword is that once in a while you see late spathae swords that are pretty original in style and method of making.

I saw a very original roman sword on a site somewhere (forgot where: sorry) that is unusual. It is a type of sword that normally has a solid ring shaped pommel of iron. This sword was said to be a medieval sword on the site (if I remember correctly; it was not identified as a roman sword any way). I feel pretty certain it is a roman sword from the late second century with a very unusual pommel.
Not a good basis for an argument that the sword in this thread is roman, I know. I just felt that the sword was so unusual it may have been an odd one in its time.



 Attachment: 20.41 KB
Sternschwert10.jpg


 Attachment: 81.3 KB
Sternschwert20.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,155

PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Peter thanks for posting a pic of that interesting sword. I've never seen a pommel like that on a roman sword before, and at first it looks really strange but when looking at the sword as a whole it is quite a beautiful piece, especially that blade. Again thanks for sharing Peter.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I don't see it. The closest sword looks like it has some form of Brazil nut pommel, the next closest also like a Brazil nut, or perhaps a tea-cosy, and the far one looks like has some form of Viking pommel, or perhaps a variation on the Brazil nut shape. None of them appear to have the somewhat scent-stopperish shape of the pommel shown here.


The pommel on the sword to the left appears to me to have two raised "blocks" in the vertical plane, shorter than those in the horizontal plane, something like a Chevy emblem.



 Attachment: 43.72 KB
mervingian sword.jpg


"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting sword Peter! Looks like a fairly typical ring pommel sword, except for the pommel. Thanks for posting!
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > viking sword?!?! or later what type of cross?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum