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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Aug, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Trying out Whirlwind cut         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhKUgeg8y0Y

The cuts in the daytime were handicapped by the targets' height being too low. After discovering that, I tried again at night with higher targets with success, cutting 4" diameter roll with ease.

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James Head





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PostPosted: Thu 26 Aug, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Lance, is this attack found in any Chinese / Korean / Japanese sword manuals? It is impressive, but I am curious where you got the idea from.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Aug, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, taught to me by my Chinese martial arts master.

It's a miao dao move.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 12:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjGg3unDgEQ
Left handed whirlwind with initial evasion and finishing cut.

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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something that seems interesting to me is that the left-handed version appeared less predictable (and therefore more dangerous to your opponent) than the right-handed. Maybe it is the extra practice, the fact that you move to the side to evade, or maybe I'm just too used to right-handed moves.

Either way, you make this look a lot better than many spinning moves you see in the movies. A lot of movies do this kind of thing in slow motion to look cool and all I can think is "Why didn't the bad guy just skewer him when he turned his back? He was just stabbing up a storm a second ago when the hero was facing him, but when his defenses were down he suddenly forgets how to stab?"
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's mainly due to moving to the side that caused it less predictable.

Colt Reeves wrote:
Something that seems interesting to me is that the left-handed version appeared less predictable (and therefore more dangerous to your opponent) than the right-handed.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 2:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance,

I'm curious- is this technique intended for use in combat? If so, what's going to stop someone from stabbing you as you spin?
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Nat Lamb




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The left hand version looks like it could maybe be used in response to an opponent really over comiting to a thrust, with the first pass of the sword being a parry.
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Michael Ahrens




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance

I love the video. however i must also ask the question of the viability of this technique in combat. all that being said, I am in love with Deva Slayer and want one just like it for my very own.


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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historically this is a combat technique for handling polearms mainly. Sweeping aside the thrust and get into the range for a devastating cut that could sever the haft of the blocking polearms.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One can be amazed by what can WORK in a combat situation. However, there is a long step from "can work" to "A good idea."

Without beeing an expert, it seems to me that a lot of chinese martial arts start of in the "opposite end" to most European or Japanese systems.
Rather than starting out with basics and building from the ground up, many chinese techniques look like things that experienced fighters might actually do in free sparring, adapted to the martial arts format.

This is not the kind of thing that you launch as a carefully planed and deliberate attack. It is, however, something that is completely plausible when rushed, or clinched in a low bind.
Of course it needs to be fast-fast-FAST. Wink

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

He states that it was largely intended against polearms, which makes a certain amount of sense. Once inside the stabbing distance you can spin relatively safely. I would think of the spin as a distraction or confusing type of thing, kind of like the tassels you find on some weapons. If he simply went right at his opponent they would probably try to choke up and block or strike with the other end, but if the spinning confuses them for even a split second...

At least, that's how I'm seeing it. My first thought was "What the...?" If I was the target I probably paused long enough for the kill. (Well, given my level of skill my only hope of survival facing Lancelot is to back up fast and advance in another direction. Wink )
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Aug, 2010 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This reminds me of one of the rules that can be found in Figueiredo' Memorial of the practice of the Montante:

Quote:
XIV.
This rule serves against thrown weapons, or against hafted weapons for two hands. Planting the body firm with the montante in obtuse posture, the body a little inclined, and ready to give a talho on the weapon that is hurled at you or that is thrust at you, you will deflect it to the left side. Then giving a large jump while turning around, another talho that reaches the person who threw it; or else deflect with a revez, according to which side the opposing weapon is aimed, to give another revez with another jump with the body turning around and making a circle, in such a manner that you offend the adversary with a blow.
(trans. Eric Myers, p.14)

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Aug, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I think this description fits the technique exactly.

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
This reminds me of one of the rules that can be found in Figueiredo' Memorial of the practice of the Montante:

Quote:
XIV.
This rule serves against thrown weapons, or against hafted weapons for two hands. Planting the body firm with the montante in obtuse posture, the body a little inclined, and ready to give a talho on the weapon that is hurled at you or that is thrust at you, you will deflect it to the left side. Then giving a large jump while turning around, another talho that reaches the person who threw it; or else deflect with a revez, according to which side the opposing weapon is aimed, to give another revez with another jump with the body turning around and making a circle, in such a manner that you offend the adversary with a blow.
(trans. Eric Myers, p.14)

Regards,

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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Aug, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting. So much for spinning having no historical basis or martial value, I guess. On the other hand, I have trouble seeing this as good idea except when used as a riposte after a deflection as in the the Figueiredo excerpt. I'd only feel comfortable turning my back on an opponent if their weapon were offline. In the sparring I've had, horrific double hits tended to result from the spins my partner tried.
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Interesting. So much for spinning having no historical basis or martial value, I guess.

I know of two other spinning moves in a weapon context:
  • In Thibault, table VIII, circles 11-12-13. This is some sort of inquarta continued to enter and stab after spinning around
  • In Katori Shinto Ryu, there is a spinning move in some naginata kata (see here at 18:00) of which I'm not completely sure what the interpretation is

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From practical experience, this kind of move is not as much as a technique in itself as an adaptation.

It will typicalt happen when both fighters are moving forward and "crash" in a bind. Instead of stopping you twirl, while your opponent is moving past you. Typically, you will not do the demonstrated "kata" turn, with propper footwork, body positioning and other niceties, as you simply do not have the time before your opponent is back on guard...

If the both parties are running, and have the same idea, the result is a matrix-esque flying twirl that is quite amusing :P

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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James Head





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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Interesting. So much for spinning having no historical basis or martial value, I guess. On the other hand, I have trouble seeing this as good idea except when used as a riposte after a deflection as in the the Figueiredo excerpt. I'd only feel comfortable turning my back on an opponent if their weapon were offline. In the sparring I've had, horrific double hits tended to result from the spins my partner tried.


I think that spinning in combat seems more natural with large weapons like Lance's huge Dao, the Montante or the Naginata. These weapons have a lot of mass and momentum. It seems that occasionally the best option is to allow the weapon to continue in its circular motion and simply spin with it. I guess it makes tactical sense if: after having thrown a powerful strike that deflected your opponent's attack, you need to quickly close distance while following up with another strike.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Plus even more sense if the spinning guy was armored. Happy I don't think it's an unarmored dueling technique, actually.

James Head wrote:
I think that spinning in combat seems more natural with large weapons like Lance's huge Dao.....

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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Mon 30 Aug, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Block a thrust by a polearm by deflecting the point to your side, what next? You want to get in close. You could try just running straight in. But you want to keep some pressure on the polearm, keep in hard contact with it, to try to keep control of it, or at least not give the polearmer complete control. Running straight in means your weapon will need to slide along the polearm. Not good if it isn't smooth all the way. Bars, guards, cross-pieces, big rivets, etc. can snag your weapon and maybe your clothes/armour. Bad! Also hard to just run straight in, since you've rotated around quite a bit to make sure of that deflection. You don't want to open up to be more front-on, since that releases the weapon, and opens your belly up for a second thrust.

The spin, rolling along the weapon, keeping in contact, keeping it pinned if possible, is a solution. Not just a plausible solution, but a good solution. Works with sowrd and shield too, after deflecting a polearm point to your right with your shield.

In a broader context, it's a case of having done a part-way spin (the deflection of the poelarm), and it's safer to complete the spin rather than turn back the way you came, likely into a polearm point.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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