Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pictures of extant kettle hats? 13th century preferred Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Pictures of extant kettle hats? 13th century preferred         Reply with quote

Hi all. I am looking for images of extant kettle hats, preferably 13th century like you see in the Maciejowski bible. The search function and Google are being absolutely useless to me. There are just too many people talking about, making or selling reproduction kettle hats. I found a few images of much later kettle hats, like the one with the nice fluted top. But nothing like the basic kettle hat that is sold so much as a reproduction.

Thanks in advance!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 12:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though it's probably not that usefull to you, here's a picture of the Norwegian finds, dating from the 13th c. onward.
As you can see, most of them are of the distinctive, scandinavian "onion head" style. This kind of helmet is depicted all the way from the 12th to 16th c, though there are also illustration of the "standard" european style.



 Attachment: 141.49 KB
[ Download ]

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 678

PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I myself have been looking for a chapel-de-fer (espesicaly after watching 'The Seventh Seal'), but one that was by far and large rarely produced, and those looks like some nice examples. Would wood and/or leather be used to fill the 'gaps'?
Oh, and may I say, you two have got to get together and do battle, 'cause you're both some of the most helpfull on here Laughing Out Loud

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
View user's profile Send private message
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks. I would surely take the time to hunt down Sander if I ever find myself in the netherlands. Wink
the helmets are all metal; some of the thinner side pannels have simply corroded away. They have been laying around for 6-800 years, after all.
These helmets are of advanced craftsmanship, and typically vary a lot in thickness. For instance, the edge of the brim in very thick, narrowing to 1,5mm towards the base. The same goes for the "ribbons" over the top. The side panels are, as can be seen form the corrosion, very thin.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the image and information Elling. As you said, not quite what I am looking for but interesting nonetheless. What piqued my interest was your comment about kettle hats with wide brims in my thread on kettle hats and spears. I was wondering how wide a brim should be and I realised I could not remember seeing any pictures of extant kettle hats like that, just paintings.

Since starting this thread I spent another couple of hours on Google without any success. I am guessing that they were hardly ever kept and treasured, being infantry helmets and not expensive knight helmets. But I would have expected some to turn up in bog finds or battlefield graves and the like.

@Sam: I'd certainly like the opportunity one day to field our Knight Hospitaller group against Elling's group. It would be quite a sight I think!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Mon 23 Aug, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it could just as well be a case of "never whent out of use" than not treasured. A "timeless" design, the kettlehatt remained in use untill they where discardable. In contrast, knightly helms where subject to a quite rapid technological development, and quickly became outdated, beeing turned into decorative items.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Mon 23 Aug, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Elling: Yep, that could be it too.

Well, let's try something else then. Any pictures of particularly good and accurate reproductions? Thing is, out Hospitallers group is working out a deal with a local smith. He'll make us helmets in exchange for us making him a full soft kit, shield, etcetera. Everything but the steel bits (weapins, armour). I'd like to provide him with some images or drawings of a well proportioned kettle hat. I have seen far too many disproportioned kettle hat reproductions. Some with very wide brims. Some with brims that don't slope downward. Many are simply too big with too deep a dome because they want to accommodate SCA-style blue-foam padding.

Again, thanks in advance!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue 31 Aug, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sander,

so I am back from vacation in Denmark and checking the latest 200 (!) postings at myArmoury.com ... And I've got a little something for you. I don't think it's 13th century, but I recall, it hung between some 14th century swiss daggers and Poleaxes. It's a kettle hat, shown at the Reichsmuseum at Rothenburg ob der Tauber. So have a look. I am checking my photos for further pieces and/or a good shots of my repro helmet. But I think you already know the piece I am talking about.

So long,
Thomas



 Attachment: 65.02 KB
IMG_1426_Rothenburg_Reichsmuseum_Eisenhut_small.jpg
High domed kettle hat with a rivited rim, as shown at the Reichsmuseum at Rothenburg ob der Tauber (South Germany).

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue 31 Aug, 2010 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, i found a shot of my kettle hat. It seems at first hand a little big, but I need this size for light padding and the maille coif. Inside is an adjustable leather inlet. I bought it from a german website, but I think it may well be a hanwei product. Nevertheless it's clearly inspired by pictures from the Morgan Picture Bible.

Thomas

PS@Elling: Don't miss on me in germany. If you ever come to the netherlands, drop by. Big Grin



 Attachment: 100.48 KB
Repro_kettle_hat.jpg
Me and my kettle hat, ready to wreak some havoc...

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Tue 31 Aug, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hehe... Looks like we'll have to fight our way throug all of continental Europe. :P
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Tue 31 Aug, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for those images Thomas. They are very useful.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Wed 01 Sep, 2010 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So... I checked the photos I took in denmark and found a kettle hat. It is part of the medieval exhibition in the danish national museum at Copenhague. You are lucky, because it's only accidently in the shot. I photographed a big pavese on the right side. I cropped the helmets for your convenience. It's one of those nordic kettle helmets with these bulging domes. Not my favorite example. Wink

Thomas



 Attachment: 67 KB
Kettle_hat_national_museum_denmark.jpg
Kettle hat from the national museum of Denmark/Copenhague.

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Wed 01 Sep, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great image, thanks. It looks like it was raised from a single piece, is that right? I don't see any rivets or holes around the base of the brim like in the other images posted in this thread so far.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Wed 01 Sep, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
So... I checked the photos I took in denmark and found a kettle hat. It is part of the medieval exhibition in the danish national museum at Copenhague. You are lucky, because it's only accidently in the shot. I photographed a big pavese on the right side. I cropped the helmets for your convenience. It's one of those nordic kettle helmets with these bulging domes. Not my favorite example. Wink

Thomas


Not to get too off-topic, but I personally would love any more photos/info on that great helm, in a new thread.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu 02 Sep, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Chad,

you are lucky. In Nathans The Dane-thread is another photo of this great helmet (a shot taken from the other side!). I'll link it for you, so you can start your own new thread Wink Perhaps Greg Coffman has another shot of the helmet? May be worth to ask him. And while being offtopic, I am not. Because the picture shows the backside of the kettle hat as well. And it seems that it is truly not riveted.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp51/gcoff...rd1210.jpg

Regards,
Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,576

PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some more detailed pictures of some Norwegian kettlehats... And, oh, the gjermundbu helmet.

http://www.unimus.no/arkeologi/#/listView?div...y=artifact

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Sun 19 Sep, 2010 2:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! Sorry I didn't see this sooner. I was away on vacation to the middle of nowhere without internet access.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pictures of extant kettle hats? 13th century preferred
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum