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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: XIV cen. infantry helmets         Reply with quote

Hi.
Simple question: this kind of cervelliere were worn untill wich period? Mid XIV?
http://bottega.avalonceltic.com/catalogo/prod...ii_xiv.php
Thanks

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Last edited by Augusto Boer Bront on Mon 16 Aug, 2010 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Matthys




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: cervelliere         Reply with quote

Augusto,
Myself, I would not think of this as a cervelliere at all, because it has the nose guard. I think of them as much the same shape but without the band and the nose guard.

I would post a picture for you if I knew how!

Anyway for time period I would think that as they were usually work underneath something else almost any time would do. I think they were even worn in Napoleonic times, by British heavy dragoons under their fore-and-aft hats (in the Peninsula)!

I guess someone could claim to have taken their great helm off and just go about in the coif and 'brain-box protector'!
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Michael.
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Beltrán Pérez





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PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

10th.-mid 13th centuries

Deus vos guard
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, there's the problem.
Our reenactment group own 6/7 of those helmets as protection of XIV cen. inantrymen.
So the question is (as I changed the title): what kind of protections wore the infantry?
All that I know is that kettlehats were common during all the century and that basicents became common by the second half of the century.
Where there other kind of helmets?
Edit: for infantryman I talk about Italian town militia.

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Beltrán Pérez





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PostPosted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For militia, chapels de fer or bascinets. For knjgths or men of arms, bascinet visorized,

Deus vos guard
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would have to say that would be an antique by the mid fourteenth century. My Italian is non-existant, but it does say ,"Nord-germanico in uso fino alla metŕ del XII secolo," which I take to mean, "northern Germany in use at the end of the twelfth century."

Besides, the shape of the helmet doesn't look...right to me. There doesn't seem to be a lot of good historical-based stuff on the site in general.

As far as what was worn: chapel de fer or cervelliere/early bascinet under a grete heume (great helm), the latter typically reserved for men-at-arms. The visored Bascinet is found more toward the end of the century (1370's onward).

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My guess is that by 1330 bascinets and kettle helmets would have been a very common type of helmet for commoners to use. In England by this time it has become a very common requirement. In the few Italian bits of artwork I can find from the 14th it seems infantry wears either a simple circular helmet, sometimes a bit swollen around the temples. The other is more pointed, either centre or slightly back pointed bascinet.

Palets seem to have been a simple head covering like a later skull cap and popular throughout the 14th century in much of europe. My guess is that it did not have a nasal but I cannot prove that one way or the other. I also assume them to be made of one piece consruction but that is my take on them.

Shame you already bought them as for a few euros more you could have gotten a helmet that is without doubt employed.

RPM
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Besides, the shape of the helmet doesn't look...right to me. There doesn't seem to be a lot of good historical-based stuff on the site in general.


Actually, aside from the blackening it looks pretty good for, say, a Maciejowski-style round-topped spangen-nasal. You see such helms quite a lot throughout the bible on infantry. Much more than the traditional nasal with the slightly pointed top.

Of course, that's mid-13th century and not mid-14th like the OP asked for.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:

Actually, aside from the blackening it looks pretty good for, say, a Maciejowski-style round-topped spangen-nasal. You see such helms quite a lot throughout the bible on infantry. Much more than the traditional nasal with the slightly pointed top.

Of course, that's mid-13th century and not mid-14th like the OP asked for.


The skull seems too shallow to me. If it's not too shallow, then the bowl is too wide. The proportions are off in some way.

Happy

ChadA

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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry if I post only commercial sites, but I need images of real helms

http://www.resmilitum.it/elmi.htm
Wich one of the first two is correct?

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
Wich one of the first two is correct?


I'd say neither. You probably don't want a band around the edge when you're wearing a mail coif over it. Especially not with such protruding decorative rivets. They are going to catch on your mail. Something more like this may be better suited.
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augosto:

Get yourself the Italy related Osprey books Italian Militia Man and Italien Medieval Armies and you will have a lot of info to start with.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Aug, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good call Felix! The carving on the bottom of page 8 shows some awesome looking infantrymen that was done 1327-1330. The book is pretty well done so a good source.

You might want to check out Nicolle's Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era.

RPM
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Aug, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:


You might want to check out Nicolle's Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era.

RPM


That one is not too bad either and has some drawings of the era in question. Although the drawings are off in detail you at least get an idea of things and the source where to look for the original.
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