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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 2:47 am    Post subject: EBE South German Longsword, 2010         Reply with quote

I'm a big fan of longswords. That might be a surprise to many as my collection has quite a large number of basket-hilts and other single-handed swords. Truth be told, the longsword is what I prefer to use for cutting and other activities. I'm a fan of the what I might call the fully-developed longsword. That is to say, the longswords found in the 16th century comprised of a compound hilt with hand-and-a-half proportions.

The South German Longsword Project
Last year I approached E. B. Erickson with the idea of creating a later-period longsword. As inspiration, we chose a mid-16th century South German/Bavarian style that has several extant examples located in museums and collections. Of particular note are three swords found in The Wallace Collection:


Wallace Collection A480, A485, A483

ElJay created a hilt in the style of these swords and utilized a single-edged hand-and-a-half sized Windlass blade that I supplied. He reshaped it, changed the fullers, sharpened it, and otherwise modified it to the point of it not being recognizable to its original form: a good thing indeed!


The Results
I took some basic black and white photos very quickly so that I can show you guys:







Click photos for full-sized versions

ElJay looked at the features of the Wallace Collection hilts along with several others and created a new variant that looks very much at home with the family. Well done!

Rayskin and leather grip. Knuckle-bow and finger rings with a thumb-ring on the back. Single-edged blade has three fullers with a smaller fourth fuller in the ricasso. False-edge is sharpened for several inches.

Overall length: 44.25"; Blade length: 36.75"; Weight: 2.7 pounds


Other Sources of Inspiration
Here are examples of other antique hilts of the same variety:

Example #1
Example #2
Example #3
Example #4

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Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well thats surely outstanding work the result is surely stunning and beautyfull
but its like all of your collection only an copy
while i see no special points which should prevent one from buying an copy the main aspect still stays.
its an copy and finding one which cherishs it the same way you do in an latter resale might be an problem
i would think such an item would cost around 3500 bucks.well only estimated but i doubt that it will be much cheaper
3 copies then make 1 Orginal
this would keep its worth over years and will rise in worth while time is passing by
while an copy might be hard to sell later, or only with an bigger loss.finding one which looks after such very special things is not to easy.looking at hermann historica one sees often the copys go for minor amounts
so i ask myself why you only go for copies and not invest your money in an collection which will keep its worth and is an sure and stout money invest
its only an question you may feel again free to delete it once again,should you find this irritating or understand it as an offence.
one has to be very carefully here.....
i think most of your collection is handsome and looks great.the craftsmanship of EBE is out of question.but today its very tricky to invest so much money in copies,i have some too but iam aware that i can sell this items hardly at the same amount i did spent on them when buying those.for the amount spent on your collection i think some good orginals could have been aquired.
so if now hell breaks loose about such an question may it be
maybe its not wise to ask such questions frankly neverless idare to do it-yes i know its not my cup of tea and i have no right to ask such silly questions.......only curiosity was the main criteria for it.not more
simply to much time
cheers
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus, I believe the answer to your question is very simple.
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Truth be told, the longsword is what I prefer to use for cutting and other activities.

Cutting is not an activity in which you would use an authentic piece.

Cheers,

-Scott

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Scott S.




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But it's not a copy Markus! It's a one-of-a-kind work of art based strongly on historic precedent. Most importantly, it's functional. myArmoury as I have come to understand it, is more about "living history" than investments per se. Of course I don't think there's anyone on this forum that would not love to have an original antique (and some do) but the martial arts plays an important part of many collectors passions and should not be overlooked.

I also believe that recognition of Mr.Erickson's masterful skill is only appropriate here. That "copy" is the result of much hard work and years of experience. (Edit: In retrospect, that sounds a little unfair to Markus seeing as he was indeed very complimentary. I got hung up on the "C word.")

Lastly, beautiful sword Nathan, congratulations on your new acquisition!


Last edited by Scott S. on Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus: Your assumption about price is the core of your argument but I think it's badly flawed. One of the reasons Eljay has such a long waitlist is because his prices are so attractive (there's also the exceptional work, of course). Remember that this piece has a Windlass blade. Don't misunderstand--It's a good blade, and a bargain. I know this because it was once MY Windlass blade, acquired in trade. The fact is, WIndlass blades are inexpensive relative to their quality.

But even if the price of such a piece from EBE were $3,500, that's still a fraction of what one would pay for a comparable antique of this type. Yes, one could buy a fine antique 19th saber instead of a reproduction 16th c. longsword, but that's a moot point when one's interest is in 16th c. longswords rather than 19th c. sabers.

As for resale--Nathan knows at least one person who would buy it from him today.
Wink

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Markus A




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hello all
yes i agree if one wants an item used for reenactment or do cutting with it he will not use an orginal.
well i considered an price of about 3500 dollars as base.i calculated an price level which is the norm in smiths work.in germany you would not get such an item for less.considering the whole work and time needed doing one.
if EBE offers his items for much less then of course i can only congratulate his customers.then i understand why he has such an long waiting list.
i would consider all under this price as bargain considering the materials and efforts making it.i paid for an similary hilt with i fitted with an old blade around 2000 euros some years back.
i agree that its an fully usable and wonderfull sword.
again it was no pun intended only curiosity.
cheers
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,
You have had a good month! Happy You continually make a good case for custom work, and especially ElJay's amazing hilts. Thank you for sharing and I am looking forward to some color photos.

Jonathan
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good lord, man, that's incredible! Congrats on such an amazing sword!
Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a beautiful, and fascinating sight. I've been working on something very similar for myself recently, with much photography of #a465 in the wallace collection as the primary reference source...

(a remarkably deceptive hilt, that - just when you think you understand it, a tiny detail creeps out of hiding and waves itself defiantly in the face of your efforts....)

so the net result shown there is rather inspiring.
in all, superb to see. I can only hope my equivalent effort is a match. .
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like to point out that there is a whole discussion of buying antiques vs. replicas in our Spotlight Topics: Old vs. new.
Happy

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus A wrote:
while i see no special points which should prevent one from buying an copy the main aspect still stays.
its an copy and finding one which cherishs it the same way you do in an latter resale might be an problem
i would think such an item would cost around 3500 bucks.well only estimated but i doubt that it will be much cheaper
3 copies then make 1 Orginal


An original sword of this period and type is well over $8,000 US (I have priced it recently, in fact) and having something approaching the condition of, say, the ones at the Wallace Collection is many times more than that. There was recently one on the market that fetched almost $15,000 US. That's quite a lot more cash than I've invested in the modern version. Perhaps a new discussion of antique versus modern-made sword would be better had in a separate topic rather than one where I'm excited to show a new acquisition? That might be more tactful. It's a worthwhile discussion and a very valid point.

Having said that, I would think ElJay would take it as quite the compliment to have his work compared so favorably versus an antique. That sort of discussion rarely pops up on the work of other makers. I certainly find it complimentary and I didn't make the thing. Haha!

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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll go so far as to say that Eljay's work IS comparable to the antiques! And this sword is certainly no exception.

Great stuff!

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The making and designing of modern swords, closely or distantly related to actual period swords, is an art in itself and comparing it to actual antiques is comparing apples and oranges: It may be valid to compare or make personal value judgement as to which one would want or value but one doesn't discredit the value of the other.

One can compare them to antiques on how close the maker has come to either duplicating a period sword or making an original creation that could credibly be a period sword in design and execution/performance if that was the objective in making the piece. One can also go the complete " modern" or fantasy route, functional or not, and again this can be judged as good or bad design/execution in context of the design objective.

As reinactment pieces, or practical using pieces or as pure art that happens to be functional in design, but may never see any actual use, ( test cutting not mayhem. Wink Laughing Out Loud ) they are of interest and value for those who don't only want to collect what exist but has value to those collectors and makers who enjoy the designing and making and appreciation of " reproductions ".

Anyway, rant over. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool

Nathan really attractive piece of the highest quality. Happy

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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's the second wickedly cool sword in a week, man. You get a bonus or something? Big Grin
J.E. Sarge
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
That's the second wickedly cool sword in a week, man. You get a bonus or something? Big Grin


Naw, just sold a kidney I think ..... Wink Razz Razz Razz Laughing Out Loud Or these long awaited custom orders where partly ( long forgotten deposits ) or all paid for already years ago ? ( or maybe some of them where ?).

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

WOW, how I missed this beauty, I have no idea. Congrats Nathan on another awesome looking sword. Could I be so bold as to ask you how she handles? I've wondered for some time how basket hilted, hand and a half, sword would handle. One of the things I've been most curious of, is what style of combat do you think these swords were intended for, it appears to me as though one would have to grip the pommel if one wanted to use one of these with both hands, so does this mean they were used single handedly with the occasional two handed blow, or am I way off? What situation would most call for one of these to be used, unarmoured duel, cavalry battle, multi-purpose, something else? Thanks in advance, and again congrats.
Éirinn go Brách
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My quick response: It's very quick and handles wonderfully. I have to say that it's not a basket-hilt, but a compound-hilted longsword. It handles relatively fine in one hand, but it's quite long so the second hand is used. It's not just there to grab the pommel, but grabs the pommel and second section of the grip. That leaves at least three inches for the second hand to grip.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Nathan, the pictures you posted made it appear as though the grip was only long enough for one hand, but it seems I was mistaken, anyway thanks again for the feedback.
Éirinn go Brách
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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello
I too, missed this one, when you first posted it. I`am sure glad this thread was resurected.
I realy like this sword....can I have it?:-)
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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i didn't even know they made swords like these. Surprised

Sean Flynt wrote:
As for resale--Nathan knows at least one person who would buy it from him today.
Wink


make that two

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