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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Cool site for European Heraldic Devices         Reply with quote

I am researching heraldry of 13th C England, and found the following site http://briantimms.net/ Big Grin This awesome site shows nearly 4000 devices from 13th C. Europe (not just English coats of arms). It also breaks down the national Rolls, including the 1285 St. George's Roll of Edward I, and the chivalry represened in the battle of Falkirk. I haven't hunted for information from other countries or eras; however, it would not surprise me that several rolls, and other heraldic documents are included.

Brian, if you are a member of myArmoury, I commend you, and sincerely thank you.

Admins: If he is not a member, he would be a valuable add.

I'm new to the site, so let me know if this post, showing the above URL is redundant. If the topic already has a forum, please move it to the appropriate forum, or delete this post. I'm mellow. Happy

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,837

PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2010 8:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Michele,

That is a great compilation of information and links. I've just bookmarked it again, as I lost all my bookmarks again just a few weeks ago (I seem to have that happen every couple of years). Fortunately, I have so many saved files of bookmarks that I end up rejoining new with old. With three/four browsers going, I usually have stuff like this one in one place or another but firmly placed back in my heraldry file.

Cheers

GC
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 8:58 am    Post subject: Heraldry Website Found         Reply with quote

Glad you found the site again, Glenn.

I found an interesting tidbit: Knights' devices were not absolute. I have been doing research on the Astley family of Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK. Andrew, 1st Lord, Baron Astley fought on the rebel side during the Baron's War of the 1260s. After signing the Dictum de Kennilworth (1266-67) he used his family device (Azure, Cinquefoile Ermines Argent) However, during the Battle of Falkirk (1298) he used a totally different device (Argent, Lion Rampant Dexter Gules with a Cinquefoil Argent badge on the lion's shoulder --The Lion Rampant was the device of his former leader, Simon de Montfort (d. 1265, Battle of Evesham) Earl Simon's device was Gules, Lion Rampant Argent Dexter). Something tells me the now 52-year-old Baron Astley was making a political comment to King Edward I. The Battle of Evesham (4 August, 1265) was a bloodbath. Andrew's father, and brother-in-law were both killed fighting under Montfort for the "Popular Cause"
Wordy, but fascinating info. Yes?

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,837

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fascinating, absolutely. I think you have found quite quickly how individual arms and displays can vary. While there is often some continuity within one house or family, individual devices are not unusual at all and by the 15th and 16th century, some major squabbles come along in disputes. One of the Drakes comes to mind off the top of my head.

More and more books are turning up as open source on Google. a family member had recently gifted me a copy of Fox-Davies A Complete Guide To Heraldry.(orig 1929), then found it is open source on the net. I don't spend the time with it I could but have widely used Burke and some other author's works for looking at England. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ is a portal I use often as well as my Google shelf and there are a half dozen other old heraldry books (a list I have here somewhere from 2004ish). The link you put up was one where I had found some of the others online.

Of course links lead to more links and it never ends. I think I work more on my own family than other characters in history. While there is no real heraldry there to consider in the modern context, some of the more notable ancestors did have their own arms and certainly some in the woodpile families of note.

I am somewhat a Percy family/house fan and work crescents and other devices. One really neat Percy trinket that came up is a brooch of some kind and my avatar comes off a book plate from a Percy of the later years. While I have found some odds and ends of the Percy crescent elsewhere, I am still looking for a photo of a standard/banner that is known to exist. Another later Percy was at the head of a relief column during the retreat from Concord. Earlier, a Percy in the Gunpowder plot. Somehow a house/family name always waving a banner for the wrong causes (or good causes that went wrong).

One extract I had just pulled from an old journal takes a look at the history of the crescent as an icon. Here is a link to a Word doc I have stashed but the entire journal it came from is online. An interesting read regarding where and when it has been adopted.
http://h1.ripway.com/Bombadil/crescents.doc

mirror here if that other locks up

http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/crescents.doc

Some other Percy stuff below along with an American South Carolina dragoon hat plate and a flag some may know.

Cheers

GC



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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri 13 Aug, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Fascinating, absolutely. I think you have found quite quickly how individual arms and displays can vary. While there is often some continuity within one house or family, individual devices are not unusual at all and by the 15th and 16th century, some major squabbles come along in disputes. One of the Drakes comes to mind off the top of my head.]

[I am somewhat a Percy family/house fan and work crescents and other devices. One really neat Percy trinket that came up is a brooch of some kind and my avatar comes off a book plate from a Percy of the later years. While I have found some odds and ends of the Percy crescent elsewhere, I am still looking for a photo of a standard/banner that is known to exist. Another later Percy was at the head of a relief column during the retreat from Concord. Earlier, a Percy in the Gunpowder plot. Somehow a house/family name always waving a banner for the wrong causes (or good causes that went wrong).

One extract I had just pulled from an old journal takes a look at the history of the crescent as an icon. Here is a link to a Word doc I have stashed but the entire journal it came from is online. An interesting read regarding where and when it has been adopted.

http://h1.ripway.com/Bombadil/crescents.doc

mirror here if that other locks up

http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/crescents.doc...

Cheers

GC


Whem I was way younger I studied Heraldic devices. I am just happy to have some illustrations, and history on my family of interest which was long in coming. Thank the Lord for online information! I am quite familiar with the Percy family name coming up in major historical events, and know for a fact that Francis Drake was an uncle--my maternal great granny's maiden name was Drake. Was Sir Francis an ancestor of yours? If so we share a bloodline. Big Grin

The Astley cinquefoil continued as that family's icon for at least 300 years. The last usage was in the 15th C. when the 6th Baroness Astley married a Grey. Percy and Le Strange were bitter enemies of the Astley family, being Kingsmen in the Second Baron's War. It is interesting that a female descendent of Baron Astley married a Le Strange. Time and events change everything.

Thanks for the Web pages. I will look them up.

I'll add a Cinquefoil Argent, Ermines to my SCA device. That, like your crescent will honor my family of interest.

Fun, fun, fun!

Michele

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,837

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Michele,

I've no direct lineage to Drake at all, just a thought in passing as one of the more notable instances of display disputes. Just one page regarding that controversy here that you may probably have seen already.
http://www.wyverngules.com/Documents/ArmsofSF..._drake.htm

It is easy enough after a few centuries to expect associations in kin and at that point, one cousin or another. Entangled in the histories one way or another. I have mostly been working the ever growing information for American expansion and the early colonies. There can be a lot of denial once a single document comes to light but then hard to dismiss the interactions of other families in migrations. What is often regarded in one circle as more than one root family, it sometimes turns out that the base is fairly well noted in other documents (early census information, taxes, etc). I tend to disturb the DNA crowd when pointing out even earlier migration patterns and interactions back to the growth and movements of Keltic tribes.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,837

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh yes, another interesting roll of the English timelines and accessions. Edward IV

http://www.freelibrary.org/medieval/index.htm

Endless, quite endless pursuits.

Cheers

GC
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:


I've no direct lineage to Drake at all, just a thought in passing as one of the more notable instances of display disputes. Just one page regarding that controversy here that you may probably have seen already.
http://www.wyverngules.com/Documents/ArmsofSF..._drake.htm

It is easy enough after a few centuries to expect associations in kin and at that point, one cousin or another. Entangled in the histories one way or another. I have mostly been working the ever growing information for American expansion and the early colonies. There can be a lot of denial once a single document comes to light but then hard to dismiss the interactions of other families in migrations. What is often regarded in one circle as more than one root family, it sometimes turns out that the base is fairly well noted in other documents (early census information, taxes, etc). I tend to disturb the DNA crowd when pointing out even earlier migration patterns and interactions back to the growth and movements of Keltic tribes.

Cheers

GC


Thanks for the URLs, Glenn! I agree that most of us would discover we're Heinz 57 Varieties concerning our DNA. I am 1/16 Native American through my maternal family tree. One example that comes to mind are the verified descendents of Thomas Jefferson, and his lover and slave Sally Hemmings. This is not so much related to arms and armor per se, so much as the importance of lineage, including your study of American colonialism. No Feudal illustration ignores the Heraldry knights pennon, baronets, et al displayed in battle.



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The Coat of Arms granted to Sir Francis Drake upon his knighthood by Queen Elizabeth I.

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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