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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Mace for tournament         Reply with quote

Hello, friends... Here we can see a mace for tournament. Was made with iron or with wood?? Can anybody tell me more about this peculiar weapon??


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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are made of wood, with a steel guard.

I have made them in the past with leather guards, and am currently working on a pair in beech.

If you intend to make one, be warned, they pack a mighty punch and if you are not careful when you swing them, you can do a lot of damage even to an armoured opponent! I believe there is a commercially available one made from latex, which is a lot more friendly to your adversary!

Julian



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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: tournament club         Reply with quote

http://historicenterprises.com/tourney-club-c...th=101_207

Here is that latex one you mentioned. These are the same ones used by royal armouries Happy
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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

O.K. Tanks to both Laughing Out Loud
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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I forget a detail: The weight. Anybody know it??

Julian, I don`t need make one. With my 6 foot 3" tall and more than 280 pounds of weight, I have not enemies, hohohohohoho Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud . In adition, an armour for tournament it would very expensive. I need a lot of steel for cover my beautifull and masive body Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings!

Does anyone know of any documentation for these maces/clubs being used on foot in tournaments or other feats of arms? I'm thus far only aware of their use on horseback.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In all the pictures than I has seen, when knights fight on foot allways used poleaxes, swords, etc. On foot, allways I has seen they used real weapons, but not courtesy weapons. Perhaps the rules of tournament said this. I think than the weight of this mace was bigger than a real mace, 5 or 6 pounds, perhaps more. I supose that de "courtesy" mace was very heavy, because a knight can unseat at his opponent with a hit. Or perhaps only was a simple training, no more?? Anybody know what say René of Anjou about this? Big Grin

Deus vos guard
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James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Greetings!

Does anyone know of any documentation for these maces/clubs being used on foot in tournaments or other feats of arms? I'm thus far only aware of their use on horseback.

Cheers,

Christian


Hi Christian. I unfortunately do not have an answer to your question. Instead, I have another question. Do you think that this weapon is related to the 'kolben' used in the Frankish Duelling Shield tradition? In some ways the two weapons seem similar, but then there also seems to be big differences.
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Beltrán!

Yes, that's generally what I've seen. I don't know if there are any exceptions regarding courtesy weapons on foot, though I do suspect the swords were likely 'rebated'.

@James - I've wondered about this as well. One problem in answering it though is that there are so many variations of the judicial kolben illustrated in the fight books. One exception, certainly, is that the judicial article is pointed on top, while these are 'blunt'. In any case, these would certainly be candidates for doing some sort of dueling shield play. That was one of my motivations in perhaps purchasing a pair.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

Yes, that's generally what I've seen. I don't know if there are any exceptions regarding courtesy weapons on foot, though I do suspect the swords were likely 'rebated'.



It`s possible. But, too was rebated the poleaxes or war hammer? Can the pick of one perforate a bascinet?

All was courtesy for horseback combat: hollow spares, maces of wood, etc. But I suspect than combat foot was more less courteous

Deus vos guard
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Beltrán!

Even the mounted tournament/feat of arms combat wasn't always so safe: there are accounts of combats with "lances of war" for even friendly encounters.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Beltrán Pérez





Joined: 31 Jul 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don`t know if used laces of war in a friendly encounters, but I know than the use of war weapons was a duel. The points of the lances for duels was called in Spain "a todo trance", used for "juicios de Dios". In this duels only search defeat at opponent or kill him. But I refer at tournament how a "knight`s training"...

Deus vos guard

El español debería ser idioma universal, leches...Qué trabajito me cuesta expresarme, sangre de Cristo......... Mad
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James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:


@James - I've wondered about this as well. One problem in answering it though is that there are so many variations of the judicial kolben illustrated in the fight books. One exception, certainly, is that the judicial article is pointed on top, while these are 'blunt'. In any case, these would certainly be candidates for doing some sort of dueling shield play. That was one of my motivations in perhaps purchasing a pair.

Cheers,

Christian


Hi Christian, I have wondered about many of the same things that you have mentioned here. Certainly, the pointed tip of the Kolben is an important detail that is missing from the 'Tourney Club'. I often wonder if the Kolben design was more standardized, but that each manuscript artist had their own problems with depicting such a difficult 'geometric' object. But then on the other hand, the Frankish tradition seems to be represented differently in each manuscript, so why wouldn't the Kolben be shaped differently as well? Personally, I feel that the biggest difference between these weapons might be the distribution of weight. I know of at least three different sources that describe throwing the Kolben at close range. Looking at the general shape of the weapon I think that it would be weighted like a giant version of a similarly shaped Japanese throwing dart. I imagine the Kolben sailing through the air, tip first, like a big wooden torpedo. :-) Of course someone would need to make one and test this theory...

The sparring club posted earlier looks awesome, but it seems way too pricey. This might be one of those instances where we could get some advice on 'foam smithing' from the LARP community and make a bunch of Kolbens for a much better price.
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Aaron Morris




Location: pueblo,colorado
Joined: 03 May 2009

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed 15 Sep, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

are there any other examples of the metal one above the wooden one
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 15 Sep, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For accounts of use of clubs and rebated swords for feats of arms, also called Deeds of Arms, as well as rules and equipment used with it, take a look at the historical handbook on the subject written by Renee de Anjou.
It's the defining work for club tourneys, a pleisance.

A modern translation of the manual, sans pictures which is a shame. But you get the gist of it from the text.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

Especially note the safety loop on the clubs required in the rules, and the thickness of the weapon as to not enter eye slots on helmets if you're going to re-create weapons and combat after it.


Wiki about Duke Renee de Anjou, the historical person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_of_Anjou

Picture of helmets from the original manual


These clubs were made of wood and leather, often gilded or silver leather to look reasonably real at a distance, there were also whalebone swords also often covered in gilded and silver leather to seem metallic at a distance, and rebated steet swords of course.

For those interested in re-creating this type of combat in present day, you could have a look at SCA Heavy combat, MCA or EMP which are all fairly accurate recreations of this, a great deal more so than is given credit for over on this forum, especially at the specific "Renée tourneys" we in the SCA have that are done after the original Renee rules, with no leg strikes and such. Although the mock weapons used and some armour could look better, but then they sometimes do. The weapons should and can be made to look exactly like the clubs in the earlier posts.
Most participants of Renee toruneys put extravagant head pieces on the helmets as seen on the original one to the right, some just add huge plumes and such, and some even use the cute "Lego style" helemts reproductions from the ones in the picture above, but for safety reasons only the ones that are fully steel encasing of the head.
There were also deeds of arms with straight cudgels, often with fabric bands tied or glued in corcscrew pattern, as seen i several historical paintings.

There's mounted mock combat being done with clubs by other societies, although I imagine the risk of the horse being struck either limits the range and freocity of the combat or risks serious charges for animal cruelty. This is why it was discontinued in the SCA, although lance jousting is still practiced in some areas.


As for the confusion about foot vs mounted use, one explanation I've heard is that "deeds of arms" is foot mock combat and "tournament" is mounted mock combat. I don't know if that's entirely accurate, but i may be?


Here's another myArmoury thread about the subject:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19855

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Dan Mackison





Joined: 18 Jan 2008

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anybody know if the HE version of this item is legal for SCA use and how well they hold up? I noticed they are available with a rattan core.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon 17 Oct, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not believe they are SCA legal because of the materials used to coat them, which are currently not allowed in the game's weapons standards (some latex has been used in testing in various kingdoms with differing success rates). There's been a lot of talk about this subject over at the Armour Archive, where a great many members are SCA combatants. I'd suggest using the search function there to find a relevant conversation about rubber-coated/latex weaponry in the game.

-Gregory
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Oct, 2011 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One way to make legal clubs like this for SCA combat is to take an enourmously thick rattan piece and shave it down to shape. This would be legal as the rules stand today as long as it's not too heavy, but I strongly suspect also you really risk hurting someone with it. Could be fun but be careful.

A far easier variant to reproduce with a rattan stick is the straight stick with rondel hand guard, though depictions of this type seem to be used on horseback only and both with and without any apparent armour, with lords and ladies participating in elaborate court desses.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Tue 18 Oct, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guys, I've taken part in a reproduction of a club melee before. It was great fun, and we hope to do it again one day.


^This is me, riding Boudicca at the Edgecote tournament 2010.

Some points which have been mentioned which no-one has addressed:

Renee states that only clubs of a certain weight can be used, and that they should be branded once weighed so people know they are ok. This to me suggests a maximum weight, probably for safety reasons. It is also worth noting that he suggests the swords be hollow ground rebated to keep the weight down and comparable to a real sword. Similarly, I would suggest these maces were meant to be comparable in weight to a real mace.

The aim of the melee was not to unhorse an opponent. It was also not to knock the crest off your opponent. The women in the stands decided who would win, the crests were there for identification.

Club melees are only dangerous to horses if you let untrained participants take part. If you're sensible in your selection process and vigorous in your policing, your horses will be fine.

Completely incorrect in materials, but a useful way of making lots of light clubs, we made ours with a hardwood core, surrounded by a formed balsa wood club. The rondels we used were leather.

Zac
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Dan Mackison





Joined: 18 Jan 2008

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
One way to make legal clubs like this for SCA combat is to take an enourmously thick rattan piece and shave it down to shape. This would be legal as the rules stand today as long as it's not too heavy, but I strongly suspect also you really risk hurting someone with it. Could be fun but be careful.


I tried carving down a thick piece of rattan and the weight is not bad. The pictured piece isn't complete but, as pictured, weighs only 1 lb 9 oz. My only complaint is that I wish I could have found thicker rattan to start.

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